(False) Accusations Of Kehot Forgery

[ExGingi]

This is not a proper analogy at all. At that point in history Chassidim were just emerging, and there was a very real concern that this was representative of all Chassidim. Rav Avraham Kalisk was a talmid of the  Maggid.

Of course we now know that isn’t true.

Am I reading this correctly? Are you finally respectfully acknowledging that the GR"A was mistaken?

[imayid2]

[/quote]

Am I reading this correctly? Are you finally respectfully acknowledging that the GR"A was mistaken?

You have yet to respond

@ExGingi do you agree or denounce the antinomianism expressed here? If we’re not on the same page about this we should focus on it first.

[jye]

To set the record straight, there was a group of Chassidim called the "Kaliskers" who were doing this. It wasn't the standard practice of the Chassidim and it was likely blown out of proportion by the Misnagdim back then.

Perhaps it isn’t inaccurate to say that if not for the fierce opposition to his practices by the Gra and misnagdim those practices might have gained more widespread acceptance going forward, in which case the opposition did help temper the extremes of chassidus.

[ExGingi]

You have yet to respond

@ExGingi do you agree or denounce the antinomianism expressed here? If we’re not on the same page about this we should focus on it first.

You are free to ask me and expect me to respond regarding things that I wrote, said, or quoted. I don't think I need to address or answer for anything RYM wrote or said (unless it is something I quoted) or else we will never get anywhere if we keep on losing focus with addressing statements of third parties. Though I might choose to address it at a later stage, introducing it at this point is a mere distraction.

[ExGingi]

Perhaps it isn’t inaccurate to say that if not for the fierce opposition to his practices by the Gra and misnagdim those practices might have gained more widespread acceptance going forward, in which case the opposition did help temper the extremes of chassidus.

Let's set the record straight: There was fierce opposition (at least from the Alter Rebbe, but probably from most other Chassidic leaders) to "Chasidei TOLK". Listen to shiur from Rabbi Paltiel and read the letters of the Alter Rebbe.

[imayid2]

Let's set the record straight: There was fierce opposition (at least from the Alter Rebbe, but probably from most other Chassidic leaders) to "Chasidei TOLK"

Did the fierce opposition to Chassidus in general, which the Alter Rebbe blamed on them, play a role in that?

[imayid2]

You are free to ask me and expect me to respond regarding things that I wrote, said, or quoted. I don't think I need to address or answer for anything RYM wrote or said (unless it is something I quoted) or else we will never get anywhere if we keep on losing focus with addressing statements of third parties. Though I might choose to address it at a later stage, introducing it at this point is a mere distraction.

I don’t think it’s a distraction at all. We gotta clear up some of the other concerns about Chassidim that were being expressed, before you’re going to get me to answer this question

Are you finally respectfully acknowledging that the GR"A was mistaken?

[jye]

Let's set the record straight: There was fierce opposition (at least from the Alter Rebbe, but probably from most other Chassidic leaders) to "Chasidei TOLK". Listen to shiur from Rabbi Paltiel and read the letters of the Alter Rebbe.

I thought the Maggid himself had a kepeida, and the cheirem contributed to that Kepaida since he blamed it in part on the kalisker? That would certainly have dissuaded any future leaders from emulating him.

The Tzemach Tzedek may not have specifically been referring to his own chassidus.

[EliJelly]

Perhaps it isn’t inaccurate to say that if not for the fierce opposition to his practices by the Gra and misnagdim those practices might have gained more widespread acceptance going forward, in which case the opposition did help temper the extremes of chassidus.

There were actually many amongst the Chassidim who believed that notwithstanding that Hisnagdus was brutal and damaging to Chassidim it did have some beneficial impacts on Chassadim too.

[imayid2]

it was likely blown out of proportion by the Misnagdim back then.

Keep in mind though

At that point in history Chassidim were just emerging, and there was a very real concern that this was representative of all Chassidim. Rav Avraham Kalisk was a talmid of the  Maggid.

Also this was coinciding with the Frankist movement. (Legend has it that the Besht died of a broken heart because of the conversion of the Frankists. I did not verify if the dates work out, or if there is a source for this.)

I am not disagreeing, but the historical context is important.

[imayid2]

There were actually many amongst the Chassidim who believed that notwithstanding that Hisnagdus was brutal and damaging to Chassidim it did have some beneficial impacts on Chassadim too.

The Sanzer Rav

[imayid2]

I strongly suggest you refrain from posting about the topic until you've at least read Wilansky's introduction

Done.
He does not seem to be under the impression this was all one big mistake.

[yelped]

The Sanzer Rav

There's a story with the Besht himself about the Rebbes in the Dor before Mashiach.

[EliJelly]

The Sanzer Rav

Like saying Moshe Rabeinu and referring to Reb Moshe Feinstein. There was one and only Sanzer Rav, this is the Kloizenburger Rebbe z"l.

Anyway, the notion about the Rebbes before Moshiach's days is well known. Ropshitzer Rov said similar as well as the Ruzhiner. We can witness it today live.

[gozalim]

@ExGingi do you agree or denounce the antinomianism expressed here? If we’re not on the same page about this we should focus on it first.
 

have you stopped beating your wife?

[imayid2]

have you stopped beating your wife?

Ok, I do not mean this in an accusatory tone. My point is self explanatory, this type of thinking existed back then, there is a tremendous danger to it, and is a recognized reason for the fierce opposition. So to say this was all a mistake is either saying that it didn’t exist, or that it’s not a problem.

[gozalim]

Ok, I do not mean this in an accusatory tone. My point is self explanatory, this type of thinking existed back then, there is a tremendous danger to it, and is a recognized reason for the fierce opposition. So to say this was all a mistake is either saying that it didn’t exist, or that it’s not a problem.

it did not exist
Just like you beating your wife

[aygart]

it did not exist
Just like you beating your wife

What makes you say this with such confidence?

[gozalim]

What makes you say this with such confidence?

what makes you so confident he doesn't beat his wife

[aygart]

what makes you so confident he doesn't beat his wife

Which did you think I was asking about?

But seriously, do you have any clear source?