Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?

[avromie7]

If someone can look at a picture and say that the looks are not for them, then seeing them in person for one date for sure does the same thing.

I believe that neither is enough to decide about looks because the way you perceive a person's physical features changes when you get to know them. My point is that it is inconsistent to say that you can decide based on a picture but can't decide based on one date.

It's not that you can't decide after 1 date, it's that saying no after 1 date is hurtful. He was saying that even if it's a clear no after 1 date, still go out a second time.

[avromie7]

I think I may have said this previously somewhere on DDF, but I'll repeat it.

When I started dating, my rebbi told me 2 things:
1) Always see her before going out.
2) Never say no after 1 date.
He said the reason is because generally the reason people say no after 1 date is because of appearance, and the same girls are likely to be rejected after 1 date very often and it can be very hurtful.

The discussion was here when this thread started.

While everyone loves to hate on the shidduch pictures, there is another side to this. Before I started dating my Rebbi told me 2 things:
1) Always see her first
2) Never say no after 1 date.

He said the main reason people say no after 1 date is because of looks, and a girl who isn't pretty will unfortunately be subject to that way too often and it can be very hurtful.

[Shmulie]

https://www.instagram.com/p/COgQ3tPtA9k/?igshid=16zfoz6climyd

They added a list of the Shadchanim that signed up

[mmgfarb]

https://www.instagram.com/p/COgQ3tPtA9k/?igshid=16zfoz6climyd

They added a list of the Shadchanim that signed up

Wonderfu. How about an initiative to take down Only Simchos and Simcha Spot for 30 days?

[Shmulie]

Wonderfu. How about an initiative to take down Only Simchos and Simcha Spot for 30 days?

Why?

[avromie7]

I don't know who your rebbi is and I probably do have respect for him but I respectfully disagree. You're combining two things into one and turning it into something that it isn't. If you saw a picture and were attracted enough to go out with her, you shouldn't be saying no after one date because of looks, you already knew what she looked like.

It can be worse than you thought. Regardless, the practicality of how that happens is irrelevant.

And if you didn't see a picture and were completely turned off by her looks after you went out, you're not doing anyone any favors by going on a second "chessed" date, if anything you're making it worse by getting someone's hopes up if they actually liked you and you know you're not going to go out again after the second date.

He clearly disagrees with you.

Saying no after 1 date is saying she's not even worth a second chance.

[mmgfarb]

Why?

Lol, the fact that you can understand why not sending girls pictures for shidduchim purposes is a good thing but can't understand why posting girls pictures online after they get engages is problematic is very funny to me. (Not picking on you personally, more on what the general public is and isn't ok with.)

[yungermanchik]

How about an initiative to take down Only Simchos and Simcha Spot for 30 days?

100%

[Shmulie]

Lol, the fact that you can understand why not sending girls pictures for shidduchim purposes is a good thing but can't understand why posting girls pictures online after they get engages is problematic is very funny to me. (Not picking on you personally, more on what the general public is and isn't ok with.)

I hear, but you don't need to get rid of it just get rid of the pictures and leave the names. It's nice when people post positive Mazel Tovs online instead of everything always being negative

[mmgfarb]

Saying no after 1 date is saying she's not even worth a second chance.

It's saying she's not worth a second chance To You because you're not going to marry her, regardless of the reason. How egotistical does a guy have to be to say about a girl that she's so pitiful that he needs to humor her with a second date just so she doesn't feel bad? If that's not objectifying women, Idk what is. You're basically saying "I be'eztem don't think you're worthy of getting married to anyone but I don't want you to think that so I'll pity you with a second date." What if you were saying no because you didn't like her personality, would it be ok then to not go out again? Because you didn't like how she looked, nobody else will? Do you see how this starts to spiral out of control?

[mmgfarb]

I hear, but you don't need to get rid of it just get rid of the pictures and leave the names. It's nice when people post positive Mazel Tovs online instead of everything always being negative

I personally couldn't care less about those simcha Instagram accounts, it's nice that people have been able to turn them into viable businesses. I'm just pointing out the ridiculous irony in the frum community.

[yungermanchik]

I hear, but you don't need to get rid of it just get rid of the pictures and leave the names. It's nice when people post positive Mazel Tovs online instead of everything always being negative

I (technically) agree but IIRC simcha spot was established for posting pictures, only simchas is a different story but it has devolved...

[elazarmn]

As per my experience, there were some girls that didn’t look like their picture. The more photogenic ones good for them but sometimes its just sad that she looked much prettier in real life. It can honestly go both ways

[Yehuda57]

Saying no after 1 date is saying she's not even worth a second chance.

If a woman said no after one date would you be offended?

[avromie7]

It's saying she's not worth a second chance To You because you're not going to marry her, regardless of the reason. How egotistical does a guy have to be to say about a girl that she's so pitiful that he needs to humor her with a second date just so she doesn't feel bad? If that's not objectifying women, Idk what is. You're basically saying "I be'eztem don't think you're worthy of getting married to anyone but I don't want you to think that so I'll pity you with a second date." What if you were saying no because you didn't like her personality, would it be ok then to not go out again? Because you didn't like how she looked, nobody else will? Do you see how this starts to spiral out of control?

I'm sorry, but you're completely missing the boat. You need to look at this from her perspective to understand.

Yes, you are telling her that to you she is not worth a second chance. This can be hurtful to anyone, even the prettiest girl in the world, unless it's a mutual agreement that it's totally not a match. This is not about a guys ego, it's about being sensitive to a girls feelings.

If a woman said no after one date would you be offended?

Why are we bringing guys feelings into the picture?

I know someone who got a no after 1 date and was hurt by it, they said what did I do that was so bad to not be worth a second shot?

[aygart]

I know someone who got a no after 1 date and was hurt by it, they said what did I do that was so bad to not be worth a second shot?

And then dropped the next girl after the first date?

[zh cohen]

As per my experience, there were some girls that didn’t look like their picture. The more photogenic ones good for them but sometimes its just sad that she looked much prettier in real life. It can honestly go both ways

And no girls (or people) look the same the first time you meet them as they do after you get to know them. Physical attraction is important, but looks are only one factor in creating that attraction.

[Yehuda57]

 Why are we bringing guys feelings into the picture?

I know someone who got a no after 1 date and was hurt by it, they said what did I do that was so bad to not be worth a second shot?

Did he automatically assume it must have been his looks? Why do you have to do something wrong for the other person to know it won't work? Feelings get hurt during dating, and obviously, it's best to be as sensitive as possible. But forcing someone to date when you know with certainty it's not going to work is not being kind. For many dating is highly stressful, not to mention time-consuming. A meaningless and unnecessary date is leading that person on, wasting their time, and emotionally taxing. All because the guy thinks the woman will think of no other reason he would say no besides looks? I dunno man. If that guy was given a second date and subsequently found out it was just to be nice, wouldn't he feel much worse?

[avromie7]

Did he automatically assume it must have been his looks? Why do you have to do something wrong for the other person to know it won't work? Feelings get hurt during dating, and obviously, it's best to be as sensitive as possible. But forcing someone to date when you know with certainty it's not going to work is not being kind. For many dating is highly stressful, not to mention time-consuming. A meaningless and unnecessary date is leading that person on, wasting their time, and emotionally taxing. All because the guy thinks the woman will think of no other reason he would say no besides looks? I dunno man. If that guy was given a second date and subsequently found out it was just to be nice, wouldn't he feel much worse?

A no after 1 date can be hurtful for anyone. A girl whose looks are the reason many boys say no, will get a no after 1 date more often, and she's more likely to be hurt by it.

[zh cohen]

But forcing someone to date when you know with certainty it's not going to work is not being kind.

Also, is it appropriate for a boy and girl to go on a date for any reason other than considering marriage? I wonder if the Rebbi's reasoning was a teretz, and his real reasoning was that someone who was sure it is a no might change their mind after a second date.

@avromie7 , was this advice given specifically to you, or was this general advice that he gives to bochurim?