Author Topic: Vaccine Mandates  (Read 73841 times)

Online CountValentine

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #820 on: December 28, 2021, 03:01:49 PM »
I have now shown you that our law also consider an unborn baby to be a human life.

So why should abortion be legal?
Abortions (most) are legal and are not murder. That is the law.
Let me turn it around on you. Why should an unborn be considered a human life when the Torah says life begins at birth or do I have that wrong?

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Offline Zevi16

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #821 on: December 28, 2021, 06:09:26 PM »
You seem to have misunderstood @Zevi16 's point, which was to characterize those who didn't vaccinate as Republicans, not Retards.  Not necessarily synonymous.

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #822 on: December 28, 2021, 06:54:09 PM »
Abortions (most) are legal and are not murder. That is the law.

That wasn't my question. My question is, since we have settled that both science and US law consider an unborn child as a human being, why is addition legal? What is the legal justification for it?

Offline chinagel

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #823 on: December 28, 2021, 08:09:11 PM »
Let me turn it around on you. Why should an unborn be considered a human life when the Torah says life begins at birth or do I have that wrong?
The Torah says a gentile who performs an abortion incurs the death penalty...

Offline iwlw2

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #824 on: December 28, 2021, 08:22:12 PM »
Something occurred to me today as I heard a Dr/public health official on the radio (in this case Dr. Thomas Frieden formerly of the CDC) talk about how everyone needs to vaccinate to protect all of us. I must be missing something, but given Omicron and how many breakthrough cases there are even amongst the vaccinated, to the point that there seems to be at least some consensus that the main purpose of giving the vaccine now is to protect from serious illness or worse (which is BTW no doubt a worthy goal in its own right), how does that protect anyone else? You can still catch covid and transmit it, maybe slightly less than otherwise but still at a pretty good rate, so how does "everyone" being vaccinated protect everyone? And to take it a step further, what would be the rationale currently behind vax mandates if it mostly just protects the one taking the shot? What am I missing @biobook ?
(Maybe this was asked and answered upthread, haven't been following this one that closely)

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #825 on: December 28, 2021, 09:26:52 PM »
The Torah says a gentile who performs an abortion incurs the death penalty...
So it discriminates?
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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #826 on: December 28, 2021, 09:28:41 PM »
That wasn't my question. My question is, since we have settled that both science and US law consider an unborn child as a human being, why is addition legal? What is the legal justification for it?
US law states most abortions are legal and not murder. Twist it any way you want but that is the law of land.
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Offline biobook

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #827 on: December 28, 2021, 11:37:40 PM »
[....] there seems to be at least some consensus that the main purpose of giving the vaccine now is to protect from serious illness or worse (which is BTW no doubt a worthy goal in its own right), how does that protect anyone else? You can still catch covid and transmit it, maybe slightly less than otherwise but still at a pretty good rate, so how does "everyone" being vaccinated protect everyone? And to take it a step further, what would be the rationale currently behind vax mandates if it mostly just protects the one taking the shot?

Iím not sure itís helpful to think of it as a conflict between protecting myself vs protecting others.  Rather, covid is a disease of society and our overall goal is to decrease the amount of covid disease in society as a whole.
 
Of course, of all the people who make up a society, thereís one that Iím particularly partial to, and so I selfishly make a special effort to protect myself.  But whether or not I get sick depends on two factors:

1. My own susceptibility to covid, and
2. How much virus is in the air around me. 

I can try to decrease my own susceptibility to some extent by maintaining general health behaviors Ė eating nutritious food, avoiding obesity, getting a full nightís sleep, and also, to some extent, by getting vaccinated.  When the vaccine was first brought out, it seemed that it would protect us against catching covid, but as a few months passed, it became clear that it wouldnít go that far, but would prevent serious illness, hospitalization and death.
 
But the second factor that determines whether or not I get covid is how much virus I encounter, and that will depend on how many other people are carrying the virus.  If I choose to isolate in my basement or hide out in the El Yunque rain forest, then I won't encounter anyone infected, and donít even need the extra protection afforded by the vaccine.  But if Iím going to move about in society, then I really want both Ė I want to maximize my own protection, and minimize the number of people around me who are potentially infected.  I want to be healthy myself, but also to live in a society of healthy individuals.

When I get vaccinated, I contribute to both these goals Ė I give myself some added protection, decreasing the chances Iíll get sick, plus I decrease the chances that Iíll add to the amount of virus in society, thereby decreasing the chances that those around me will get sick. 

The mandate, as I understand it, is geared mostly towards the second point, that is, trying to decrease the burden of covid disease in society as a whole.  Its aim is not to paternalistically keep any one individual healthy, just like thereís no mandate to make sure you brush your teeth, much as we'd like you to do that.  Rather itís to keep society healthy, on two levels: First, to make sure that the number of sick individuals is not so great that it overwhelms the medical resources in our society (hospital and ICU beds, doctors and nursesí time, drugs, etc).  And second, to make sure that the number of virus-infected people who roam around our society are low enough to prevent large-scale transmission to others.  As you note, even those who try to lower their susceptibility by getting the vaccine are not 100% protected, and still could become sick if they encounter enough virus.  This is especially true for those over 60, who are about 20% of Americans.  Also, there are many people who canít get vaccinated, because theyíre under 5 years old, or have some health condition that makes the vaccine dangerous or ineffective.  So keeping society virus-free Ė or as close to that as we can realistically get Ė will help protect those people as well. 

This protection offered by the vaccine extends not only to the physical health of those people who circulate in society, but also contributes to the economic health of society.  An outbreak of covid has negative effects on schools, restaurants, shopping, entertainment, travel.

This is why the mandates were initially widely accepted by businesses.  IIRC it was about 2 hours after Biden's announcement of the mandate that several large businesses announced that employees would have to vax.  They clearly had thought this through beforehand, and welcomed the legal backing that allowed them to try to create an office environment that would minimize disease transmission to healthy workers, by ensuring that all their co-workers were vaccinated.

Offline neveryou

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #828 on: December 29, 2021, 01:40:55 AM »
So it discriminates?
We are the chosen people

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #829 on: December 29, 2021, 05:47:36 AM »
We are the chosen people
I will take that as a yes.
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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #830 on: December 29, 2021, 08:43:21 AM »
I will take that as a yes.
There are definitely differing rules which occasionally end up stricter on the non-Jew for some very specific items. The Talmud considers it to be a question that needs an answer to how it can be and it is typically based on a technicality.
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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #831 on: December 29, 2021, 09:30:21 AM »
There are definitely differing rules which occasionally end up stricter on the non-Jew for some very specific items. The Talmud considers it to be a question that needs an answer to how it can be and it is typically based on a technicality.

I donít remember specific examples, but itís possibly also works the other way around, where in some cases there are stringencies for Jews that arenít applicable to non-Jews.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #832 on: December 29, 2021, 09:39:43 AM »
I donít remember specific examples, but itís possibly also works the other way around, where in some cases there are stringencies for Jews that arenít applicable to non-Jews.
That is the case 99.9% of the time and is why the exceptions need an explanation
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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #833 on: December 29, 2021, 10:06:26 AM »
There are definitely differing rules which occasionally end up stricter on the non-Jew for some very specific items. The Talmud considers it to be a question that needs an answer to how it can be and it is typically based on a technicality.
I donít remember specific examples, but itís possibly also works the other way around, where in some cases there are stringencies for Jews that arenít applicable to non-Jews.
That is the case 99.9% of the time and is why the exceptions need an explanation
I have no issue with that and understand what you are saying even when I disagree. What I have an issue with is when someone ignores a question because it doesn't support what they are saying.
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Offline chinagel

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #834 on: December 29, 2021, 12:52:20 PM »
So it discriminates?
If by discriminate you mean has different rules for Jews and Gentiles, the answer is yes.

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #835 on: December 29, 2021, 12:57:53 PM »
If by discriminate you mean has different rules for Jews and Gentiles, the answer is yes.
Not selling your house to a black but a white is different rules but also racist discrimination.  ;)
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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #836 on: December 29, 2021, 12:59:20 PM »
Not selling your house to a black but a white is different rules but also racist discrimination.  ;)
Except that any gentile can become a Jew, but a race cant be changed.
^^^

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #837 on: December 29, 2021, 01:12:50 PM »
Not selling your house to a black but a white is different rules but also racist discrimination.  ;)
I have no problem with that label. In this case it's not true as Judaism isn't a race. Also, it's very much a 2 way street and in general Jews have the stricter side by a lot.
But, the main point is the Torah is the ultimate good. So it's the decider of morally right/wrong. What ever the latest values of society may be, if they conflict with the Torah, they're the ones repudiated, not the Torah.

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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #838 on: December 29, 2021, 01:30:54 PM »
Except that any gentile can become a Jew, but a race cant be changed.
Strawman
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Re: Vaccine Mandates
« Reply #839 on: December 29, 2021, 01:38:04 PM »
I have no problem with that label. In this case it's not true as Judaism isn't a race. Also, it's very much a 2 way street and in general Jews have the stricter side by a lot.
But, the main point is the Torah is the ultimate good. So it's the decider of morally right/wrong. What ever the latest values of society may be, if they conflict with the Torah, they're the ones repudiated, not the Torah.
That is your view and I would expect no different.
All religions have issues. Some just don't want to acknowledge that.
The issue is when someone lives according to the Torah but then pretends a fetus is a human life, I then will call them out.
I asked a certain member (not you) a few times if according to the Torah if human life begins at birth and he will not answer it.
Either I am wrong about that, and he can correct me, or he is being ...
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