Chaim Walder dies

[WAM]

Can you point to a specific relevant Halacha?

פרק ז הלכה ב
Read the footnotes and the * on the footnote.

[WAM]

You (and many others here) are terribly mistaken about what 'Lemeichash' means. What @avromie7 said was spot-on. 'Lemeichash' does not mean you have the right to cancel the person and all of their works, and forever destroy their reputation, before anything was verified. His books were removed from store bookshelves literally within 24 hours of a secular journalist publishing accusations. (As another poster mentioned, since when do we so religiously believe an article published by a secular Haaretz journalist?)
What 'Lemeichash' does mean, is that you don't need to send your child to him for therapy until things are verified. You don't need to act blindly, but to cancel someone based on initial reporting without any evidence provided yet?!?!

(Also, without getting into too much detail, from all that I read so far, it seems that the evidence up until now is pretty weak. To note, not a single police report filed. Not a single name published, as far as I'm aware. Doesn't necessarily prove innocence, but definitely deserves a fair trial before being canceled and destroying his life and his family.)

Since we're told not to go to the police, the fact that a police report doesn't exist should not be a factor.

[WAM]

UPS method?

Now that can never be discussed in public!!!

I think this is irrefutable and a huge problem.

+1 Chafetz Chaim mentioned this 100 years ago. Social media only makes it easier.

are you aware that only 1 BD in Tzfas announced the investigation? For such a high profile case, another reputable BD, or court should get involved.

And about the hill people "choose to die on", Ahem...

If you don't trust 1 beis din - why trust any? Are you going to at least mention the name of the beis din that disagrees? For such a high profile case, don't you think there would be another reliable BD, or court that would disprove the 1st BD (if there was a credible reason to do so)?

Rav Eliyahu is an extremist dati leumi leader who is given to hyperbole. He stated he won’t allow Rav Ovadia Yosef’s seforim in his house after Oslo. He has by all accounts made lots of hyperbolic and controversial statements over the years. He may be very chashuv. Maybe it’s just his style. I have no idea. But you’ll forgive me if I don’t take his word as Torah min Hashomayim and would want further verification from someone whose words are measured. If the above had been said by Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky it would be very different.

According to the Chafetz Chaim, may I believe any of the above?

Are you comparing someone's public actions, to
 unverified accusations? There is a process for this. Berland andמשי זהב cases were verified in court. Not by a Safardic BD in Tzafas.

Perhaps it would be better not to bash Sefardim while, at the same time, telling people not to speak loshon hara.

[avromie7]

What extreme are you talking about? I didn’t take a stance, I only questioned those who claim to know what to do.

In this thread, I've never seen you worried about the possibility of an innocent man being falsely accused. Your reaction is always publicize first, ask questions later

That’s ridiculous. He ventured a guess as to *which* victim the questioner was referring to. Why on earth was this a multiple choice question!?

That was my first impression, now that you pointed it out I see I am mistaken.

This is not the Halacha. And even if this were a situation where it were (such as if he were a tzadik) I’m far from convinced the chiyuv of btzedek tishpot would override the potential chiyuv of lo saamod.

Please teach me what I got wrong about dan lekaf zechus.

Sure there is. The recording is alleged to have been taken recently regarding an incident 18 years ago and he’s over 50.

Do you have any evidence that it was recently? Where was it even alleged to be recently?

Also, I apparently do know more than many here if they have never heard the rumors but there are at a minimum hundreds of people who have heard this about him going back literally decades.

Rumors are just rumors. All it takes is 1 person to make a joke for it to spread around among thousands of people.

[avromie7]

Hmm interesting. I'm a bit confused on which part you are stressing when categorizing the perpetrators. Is it the age of the perpetrator or the time since the last act? Maybe a bit of both. To me it seems like you were saying the former. As well as that it's possible the younger person has already changed or isn't liable for their actions as much.

I don't have my opinion fully formed but I do know that there are some points that I often see repeated by the majority of people that doesn't sit right by me.

Number one, it seems like most people consider if an adult is attracted to a minor as a sickness. I don't see it as a sickness. Maybe you were saying it's the acting upon such urges which is the sickness. But I still wouldn't call that a sickness more than anything else such as stealing.

Number two it seems like the type of abuse that happened is nearly irrelevant if the victim was a minor. Once again I don't see it that way either. I imagine the biggest factor should be  how much pain was inflicted. And that includes trauma from fright. (this does not include other types of trauma simply because I don't understand it as I've mentioned upthread)

Number three when you say that there should never be any punitive revenge. I understand it to mean that any reaction should be done only to rehabilitate the perpetrator or if not possible then to remove from society. I take issue with that as well. I dont see any reason why punitive revenge should be withheld. IMO justice is always nonlogical I don't see a reason to withhold a punishment only because there's no reason to do something.

Lastly the above is not taking into account anything from a Jewish religious standpoint. They are my moral views without mixing anything else in.

I was going to respond until I saw the last paragraph.

The torah and halacha are our guide. The fact that people feel their emotional "morals" override is the problem here (it can be a problem on both sides).

[aygart]

Rumors are just rumors. All it takes is 1 person to make a joke for it to spread around among thousands of people.

Kala dlo pasik makes a difference lhalacha

[Definitions]

I was going to respond until I saw the last paragraph.

The torah and halacha are our guide. The fact that people feel their emotional "morals" override is the problem here (it can be a problem on both sides).

Please do respond. I want to hear what you have to say. My last paragraph was not meant in that way that my morals override anything. All I was saying was that if you tell me something along the lines of you can't have punitive punishment because it's assur because of XYZ. Then you're likely right but I wasn't going through any cheshbonos to see all possible issurim involved.

[avromie7]

Hmm interesting. I'm a bit confused on which part you are stressing when categorizing the perpetrators. Is it the age of the perpetrator or the time since the last act? Maybe a bit of both. To me it seems like you were saying the former. As well as that it's possible the younger person has already changed or isn't liable for their actions as much.

The most important distinction is age. Time passed would be a factor, but that's not the distinction I was making.

I don't have my opinion fully formed but I do know that there are some points that I often see repeated by the majority of people that doesn't sit right by me.

Number one, it seems like most people consider if an adult is attracted to a minor as a sickness. I don't see it as a sickness. Maybe you were saying it's the acting upon such urges which is the sickness. But I still wouldn't call that a sickness more than anything else such as stealing.

as I heard from R' Gershon Weiss, he was once talking to R' Moshe Feinstein about a bachur who was a kleptomaniac, every time he referred to it as a machla R' Moshe corrected him and said Yetzer Horah. I think the same applies here, I don't think these people are evil or sick (what they do is sick), they have a yetzer hara and left unchecked it evolves into something evil.

Number three when you say that there should never be any punitive revenge. I understand it to mean that any reaction should be done only to rehabilitate the perpetrator or if not possible then to remove from society. I take issue with that as well. I dont see any reason why punitive revenge should be withheld. IMO justice is always nonlogical I don't see a reason to withhold a punishment only because there's no reason to do something.

Halacha does not allow revenge (Nekamah). Everything must be done with a constructive purpose. Additionally, the last thing we need is vigilante justice.

[AsherO]

The most important distinction is age. Time passed would be a factor, but that's not the distinction I was making. Halacha does not allow revenge (Nekamah). Everything must be done with a constructive purpose. Additionally, the last thing we need is vigilante justice.

Revenge isn’t constructive, it is t even optimal for giving survivors closure (to the extent possible). At the same time there do have to be consequences.

I also wonder what value Torah ascribes to consequences-as-a-deterrent, considering that the things that’ll deter future perpetrators could could potentially cause unnecessary harm to perpetrators and their families. Keep in mind I’m not talking about consequences/restitution in general, just specifically when serving as a deterrent. The Torah does say וכל העם ישמעו ויראו ולא יזידון עוד, but does that necessitate/extend what’s prescribed, or is it just a fringe benefit of the same degree of consequences?

[avromie7]

Revenge isn’t constructive, it is t even optimal for giving survivors closure (to the extent possible).

At least we're in agreement over something.

At the same time there do have to be consequences.

I also wonder what value Torah ascribes to consequences-as-a-deterrent, considering that the things that’ll deter future perpetrators could could potentially cause unnecessary harm to perpetrators and their families. Keep in mind I’m not talking about consequences/restitution in general, just specifically when serving as a deterrent. The Torah does say וכל העם ישמעו ויראו ולא יזידון עוד, but does that necessitate/extend what’s prescribed, or is it just a fringe benefit of the same degree of consequences?

This is something that can only be done in BD. There should never be vigilante justice by the public.

[AsherO]

At least we're in agreement over something.This is something that can only be done in BD. There should never be vigilante justice by the public.

Just so we’re clear, constructive doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t painful for all parties involved, with deference to survivors.

[VacationLover]

Just so we’re clear, constructive doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t painful for all parties involved, with deference to survivors.

+1000000

[WonderingYid]

you said "If he did sincere תשובה"

which is why i wrote "if" as in "if this is true that he molested multiple underage boys what type of repentance would make you feel comfortable having him around your child or other young people"

Nothing will.

[S209]

In this thread, I've never seen you worried about the possibility of an innocent man being falsely accused.

You haven’t looked hard enough

I also know of a case where it’s pretty evident the man was falsely accused. It stinks, and should be avoided at all costs.

False allegations can have a terrible effect on someone and their family, not unlike abuse.

Your reaction is always publicize first, ask questions later

Please point to a place where I voiced that opinion. All I have done was question those who say that is best to suppress information for as long as possible as to what steps would they take to safeguard others and how they can be certain that lashon hara is worse than lo saamod. I don’t believe I ever posited when or the right way to publicize information.

Please teach me what I got wrong about dan lekaf zechus.

This is the Rambam on Hevei Dan es Kol ha’adam lekaf Zechus

והוי דן את כל האדם לכף זכות. ענינו כשיהיה אדם שלא תדע בו אם צדיק הוא אם רשע ותראהו שיעשה מעשה או יאמר דבר שאם תפרשהו על דרך אחת יהיה טוב ואם תפרשהו על דרך אחרת יהיה רע קח אותו על הטוב ולא תחשוב בו רע אבל אם יהיה האדם נודע שהוא צדיק מפורסם ובפעולות הטובות ונראה לו פועל שכל עניניו מורים שהוא פועל רע ואין אדם יכול להכריעו לטוב אלא בדוחק גדול ואפשר רחוק הוא ראוי שתקח אותו שהוא טוב אחר שיש שום צד אפשרות להיותו טוב ואין מותר לך לחשדו ועל זה אמרו כל החושד בכשרים לוקה בגופו וכן כשיהיה רשע ויתפרסמו מעשיו ואחר כן ראינוהו שיעשה מעשה שכל ראיותיו מורות שהוא טוב ויש בו צד אפשרות רחוק לרע ראוי להשמר ממנו ושלא תאמן בו שהוא טוב אחר שיש בו אפשרות לרע ועל זה נאמר (גם) כי יחנן קולו אל תאמן בו וגו' וכשיהי' בלתי ידוע והמעשה בלתי מכריע לא' משני הקצוות צריך בדרך החסידות שתדין לכף זכות איזה קצה שיהיה משני הקצוות:

We have no reason to believe he’s specifically a Tzadik (quite the opposite) and the evidence clearly points in one direction so there’s no reason to stretch and search for an unlikely way to see this in a more positive light.

Do you have any evidence that it was recently? Where was it even alleged to be recently?

Avital Chizhik-Goldschmidt reported that she had it confirmed by two sources that she trusts.

Rumors are just rumors. All it takes is 1 person to make a joke for it to spread around among thousands of people.

They don’t say it about everyone, and more often than not persistent rumors have some basis in reality. Of course it’s *possible* that it’s nothing but it’s probably foolish to completely disregard it, and in conjunction with this tape it’s more than nothing. The Chofetz Chaim I posted in the other thread lent credence to rumors.

Kala dlo pasik makes a difference lhalacha

[avromie7]

You haven’t looked hard enoughPlease point to a place where I voiced that opinion. All I have done was question those who say that is best to suppress information for as long as possible as to what steps would they take to safeguard others and how they can be certain that lashon hara is worse than lo saamod. I don’t believe I ever posited when or the right way to publicize information.
This is the Rambam on Hevei Dan es Kol ha’adam lekaf ZechusWe have no reason to believe he’s specifically a Tzadik (quite the opposite) and the evidence clearly points in one direction so there’s no reason to stretch and search for an unlikely way to see this in a more positive light.
Avital Chizhik-Goldschmidt reported that she had it confirmed by two sources that she trusts.They don’t say it about everyone, and more often than not persistent rumors have some basis in reality. Of course it’s *possible* that it’s nothing but it’s probably foolish to completely disregard it, and in conjunction with this tape it’s more than nothing. The Chofetz Chaim I posted in the other thread lent credence to rumors.

I disagree with your assertion that the evidence "clearly points in one direction". When looking at it with an open mind and without the fluff added by those looking to make sensational noise, I think the evidence is far from conclusive. Maybe there is more they know, but based on the facts we've been given, I see a clear possibility of it not being what it's portrayed as.

The impression I get is that you never really considered the possibility that there is something wrong with the recording or it was from way back and this happened when he was a minor. Maybe because you have a preconceived notion about him based on rumors you heard in high school.

[Yehuda57]

The recording is from a few months ago. It is linked to on the Avital thread about him that is mentioned.

[S209]

The impression I get is that you never really considered the possibility that there is something wrong with the recording or it was from way back and this happened when he was a minor.

Correct, I didn’t stretch myself to search for an unlikely way out when it doesn’t appear to be that way. Could it be? Absolutely. Is it likely? Certainly not.

Maybe because you have a preconceived notion about him based on rumors you heard in high school.

For sure that plays a role. Is that wrong? Also, the recording was quite explicit.

[VacationLover]

All I have done was question those who say that is best to suppress information for as long as possible

Refraining from announcing publicly (without a BD) is not called suppressing

[S209]

Refraining from announcing publicly (without a BD) is not called suppressing

If you are a witness to someone abusing a child, would you consider it suppression to not warn others who may be his next victim?

[avromie7]

If you are a witness to someone abusing a child, would you consider it suppression to not warn others who may be his next victim?

There is a huge difference between warning potential victims and blasting it on the internet.