Topic Wiki

I created an account to say this

I am a survivor of abuse

I tried to type up a longer, more detailed post but it got too hard. The bottom line is the following

There's no such thing as universal feelings, reactions, desires, needs that all victims share. Each one is an individual who suffered alone and carries the unique scars that stay with them and each one will react to future situations in life in their own way.

Therefore, there is no single response to abuse that will leave all victims feeling safe, secure, validated, supported, closure and everything else all the well meaning people here want to give them.

However, I think there is a single response that would leave all victims feeling further pain and trauma and that is "It can't be."

Rabbi Shimon Russell - How to Safeguard and Protect our Children

https://youtu.be/fefqSvXf0JI


« Last edited by Yehuda57 on January 12, 2022, 05:44:00 PM »

Author Topic: Chaim Walder dies  (Read 133615 times)

Offline iwlw2

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 252
  • Total likes: 188
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #380 on: December 29, 2021, 12:59:33 PM »
As an observer of this and other threads on DDF (and elsewhere, DDF is just usually even in these matters more mature and thoughtful than most), I notices something (may be obvious, but just to put it out there). This whole thread and many others like it can be summed up essentially as polarizing. There is really a lot of extremes on all ends being put forward. This seems to be a trend that has gotten worse in recent years all over, or maybe it always was except there were fewer forums in which to engage people who thought differently.
In any case though on this and so many other issues I can't help but wonder, where is the nuance? For example, can there be no middle ground between protecting an abuser and outing him completely and serving as judge jury and executioner on him in every whatsapp group? I don't think Rav Gershon Edelstein Shlita's point was in any way to defend this person or his actions, or to say that it should not have been dealt with in the most serious and intense matter to get to the bottom of things and then have responsible parties put out the conclusions, or even to denounce the loshon hara aspects per se that would have to have been dealt with then. I think he was just saying that it's not for every Tuvya, Dovid, and Hershel to share every bit of info from any source along with their expert opinions on the matter. Can we not agree that there should be a zero tolerance for even a hint of abuse as relates to those in a position to act upon it, and strong support for the abused to come forward in a manner in which their stories will be taken seriously and they will be protected as serious investigations and consequences ensue, but still without it becoming the talk and gossip of the town? It seems that everyone on both sides agrees that those who were hurt need to have a way to come forward, and also the accused and their families deserve some protection as well, so wouldn't letting the right people (whether that's a beis din or the authorities) handle things be the right thing without everyone needing to know and talk about it? I don't know, maybe that is not even possible any more, and if thats the reality then we need to deal with that too, but wouldn't that be the utopian solution that we can all agree that we should be striving towards? Just my two cents....

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18990
  • Total likes: 15126
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #381 on: December 29, 2021, 01:00:21 PM »
Part One, The Prohibition Against Lashon Hara, Principle 7, Seif 4
1
וְהוּא הַדִּין, אִם יָצָא (ח) קוֹל עַל אֶחָֹד, שֶׁעָשָׂה מַעֲשֶׂה אוֹ שֶׁדִּבֵּר דָּבָר, שֶׁלֹּא כָּרָאוּי עַל פִּי הַתּוֹרָה, בֵּין שֶׁהוּא אִסוּר חָמוּר וּבֵין שֶׁהוּא אִסוּר קַל, אֲפִלּוּ הָכֵי אָסוּר לְקַבְּלוֹ לְהַאֲמִינוֹ בְּהַחְלָטָה, רַק לָחוּשׁ, עַד שֶׁיִּתְבָּרֵר הַדָּבָר, וְעַל אַחַת כַּמָּה וְכַמָּה שֶׁיִּזָּהֵר מְאֹד, אִם רוֹצֶה לְסַפֵּר אֶת הַדָּבָר לַאֲחֵרִים, (ט) שֶׁלֹּא יְכַוֵּן לְהַעֲבִיר הַקּוֹל וּלְגַלּוֹתוֹ יוֹתֵר, וּכְמוֹ שֶׁבֵּאַרְנוּ לְעֵיל בִּכְלָל ב' סָעִיף ג', עַיֵּן שָׁם הֵיטֵב.
The same is true if a rumor has spread about someone that he has done something or said something not in accordance with the Torah, whether a greater or lesser issur, it is forbidden to accept it, to believe it implicitly, but only to suspect, until the thing is clarified. How much more so must he take care, if he wishes to tell the thing to others, that he have no intent to spread the rumor and to reveal it further, as we explained above (viz. Principle II, section 2).
I didn't realize that the bolded items are what you were referring to. (Maybe I didn't read what you wrote carefully enough)
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18990
  • Total likes: 15126
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #382 on: December 29, 2021, 01:01:17 PM »
As an observer of this and other threads on DDF (and elsewhere, DDF is just usually even in these matters more mature and thoughtful than most), I notices something (may be obvious, but just to put it out there). This whole thread and many others like it can be summed up essentially as polarizing. There is really a lot of extremes on all ends being put forward. This seems to be a trend that has gotten worse in recent years all over, or maybe it always was except there were fewer forums in which to engage people who thought differently.
In any case though on this and so many other issues I can't help but wonder, where is the nuance? For example, can there be no middle ground between protecting an abuser and outing him completely and serving as judge jury and executioner on him in every whatsapp group? I don't think Rav Gershon Edelstein Shlita's point was in any way to defend this person or his actions, or to say that it should not have been dealt with in the most serious and intense matter to get to the bottom of things and then have responsible parties put out the conclusions, or even to denounce the loshon hara aspects per se that would have to have been dealt with then. I think he was just saying that it's not for every Tuvya, Dovid, and Hershel to share every bit of info from any source along with their expert opinions on the matter. Can we not agree that there should be a zero tolerance for even a hint of abuse as relates to those in a position to act upon it, and strong support for the abused to come forward in a manner in which their stories will be taken seriously and they will be protected as serious investigations and consequences ensue, but still without it becoming the talk and gossip of the town? It seems that everyone on both sides agrees that those who were hurt need to have a way to come forward, and also the accused and their families deserve some protection as well, so wouldn't letting the right people (whether that's a beis din or the authorities) handle things be the right thing without everyone needing to know and talk about it? I don't know, maybe that is not even possible any more, and if thats the reality then we need to deal with that too, but wouldn't that be the utopian solution that we can all agree that we should be striving towards? Just my two cents....

+1
Note that the Yated themselves removed his column.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline VacationLover

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Sep 2014
  • Posts: 1683
  • Total likes: 254
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #383 on: December 29, 2021, 01:04:10 PM »
This is utter poppycock. You've created an entire bubbeh maaseh about lashon hora as if it somehow contradicts protecting victims and potential victims. The two are not mutually exclusive.

As I said before, if the two do contradict, it's telling where you choose to err. On the side of protecting the abuser of the victims.

Is this really the hill people want to die on? Defending the honor of the likes of Chaim Walder?
are you aware that only 1 BD in Tzfas announced the investigation?

For such a high profile case, another reputable BD, or court should get involved.

And about the hill people "choose to die on", Ahem...
« Last Edit: December 29, 2021, 01:09:28 PM by VacationLover »

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 69436
  • Total likes: 18070
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #384 on: December 29, 2021, 01:08:47 PM »
I can't access that link, so have no idea what it says. 

Paraphrasing...

Given that so many have come forward, we can't make excuses as if this didn't happen. And then he committed suicide rather than face victims and courts.

1. Walder didn’t write book about math or science, he wrote about morality. He set himself up to be a moral compass for our children, but wasn’t able to keep his own moral compass.

His books speak to our minds and souls, but you don’t know which stories are about one of his victims who went to him at the most vulnerable point in their life, and then he abused them.

The children who say I’m the Yael, I’m the Rivkah, I’m the Leah, that he went on to abuse, they’re not going to come forward, but we know that their stories are told in these books.

2. If you think your children are too young and won’t know what he did, eventually they will know. And then they’ll ask you if you know that he was a sexual predator and when you say you did, they will ask why you read them his books. Perhaps you'll answer that it’s a grey area, but you’re setting yourself up for failure because there is no grey area for abuse, for someone who pretends to do something for Hashem’s sake, but really it’s for their own twisted desires.

3. When we say we want to hear the stories of victims and they should feel safe to come forward. This story has triggered emotions in victims who say that they would burn his books, as he used them to gain money and fame and gain access to vulnerable children. His own family is thus a victim and anyone who brought his books into their home is also a victim.

Even though he decided to leave this world, leaving survivors with no closure and no way to confront their abuser, we can say to his victims and all abuse victims that we as a community don’t stand for this and we will eradicate the evil from within us and we take it out of our homes. We have to make sure children know there is no grey area and we can’t tolerate or forgive abuse or keep any remnant as part of our lives.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2021, 02:10:36 PM by Dan »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline dasmo801

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 312
  • Total likes: 787
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood, NJ
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #385 on: December 29, 2021, 01:09:18 PM »
+1
Note that the Yated themselves removed his column.

Not according to the Yated article posted above.  They claim that he recently requested a temporary break from writing.

Offline WonderingYid

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2021
  • Posts: 1561
  • Total likes: 298
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: New York
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #386 on: December 29, 2021, 01:09:22 PM »

Offline Something Fishy

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 8937
  • Total likes: 6469
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 44
    • View Profile
    • Kosher Horizons
  • Location: Iceland
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #387 on: December 29, 2021, 01:10:31 PM »
Texas

I could just picture the scene 400 years ago...

"All y'all ready to do some kabbalah?"
Check out my site for epic kosher adventures: Kosher Horizons

Offline VacationLover

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Sep 2014
  • Posts: 1683
  • Total likes: 254
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #388 on: December 29, 2021, 01:11:59 PM »
I could just picture the scene 400 years ago...

"All y'all ready to do some kabbalah?"
Was a typo... sorry...

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 69436
  • Total likes: 18070
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #389 on: December 29, 2021, 01:12:06 PM »
I could just picture the scene 400 years ago...

"All y'all ready to do some kabbalah?"
I wonder what Nusach HaAri Zal would look if he lived in Texas?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline WonderingYid

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2021
  • Posts: 1561
  • Total likes: 298
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: New York
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #390 on: December 29, 2021, 01:12:56 PM »
I  would like to bring up a point that I feel cannot be left unsaid even if it is not relevant to this particular case.

through the toughness of it all, our goal, first and foremost, has to be to react to things we hear the way the Torah tells us to react in that particular instance.

The general rule with accepting lashon hara is that unless the accusations have already been confirmed true by a beis din, one may not believe the accusations but he may suspect and protect himself (and others) until the matter is verified.

The emotional and physical wellbeing of abuse victims is of utmost importance which is why their accusations should be investigated seriously. However, one may not believe it as true until the investigations have been completed and a beis din has given a psak.

going to the media or social media with accusations before a psak is made is not allowed either
Warn other people?

Offline Something Fishy

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 8937
  • Total likes: 6469
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 44
    • View Profile
    • Kosher Horizons
  • Location: Iceland
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #391 on: December 29, 2021, 01:13:49 PM »
Was a typo... sorry...

Lol I know

I wonder what Nusach HaAri Zal would look if he lived in Texas?

I would imagine a lot more yee haws during hagbah
Check out my site for epic kosher adventures: Kosher Horizons

Offline WonderingYid

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2021
  • Posts: 1561
  • Total likes: 298
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: New York
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #392 on: December 29, 2021, 01:15:51 PM »
Why we need to throw away his books:
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CYEQhywhb1Q/
Filter blocks IG. What does it say?

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 69436
  • Total likes: 18070
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #393 on: December 29, 2021, 01:16:41 PM »
Filter blocks IG. What does it say?
Paraphrasing...

Given that so many have come forward, we can't make excuses as if this didn't happen. And then he committed suicide rather than face victims and courts.

1. Walder didn’t write book about math or science, he wrote about morality. He set himself up to be a moral compass for our children, but wasn’t able to keep his own moral compass.

His books speak to our minds and souls, but you don’t know which stories are about one of his victims who went to him at the most vulnerable point in their life, and then he abused them.

The children who say I’m the Yael, I’m the Rivkah, I’m the Leah, that he went on to abuse, they’re not going to come forward, but we know that their stories are told in these books.

2. If you think your children are too young and won’t know what he did, eventually they will know. And then they’ll ask you if you know that he was a sexual predator and when you say you did, they will ask why you read them his books. Perhaps you'll answer that it’s a grey area, but you’re setting yourself up for failure because there is no grey area for abuse, for someone who pretends to do something for Hashem’s sake, but really it’s for their own twisted desires.

3. When we say we want to hear the stories of victims and they should feel safe to come forward. This story has triggered emotions in victims who say that they would burn his books, as he used them to gain money and fame and gain access to vulnerable children. His own family is thus a victim and anyone who brought his books into their home is also a victim.

Even though he decided to leave this world, leaving survivors with no closure and no way to confront their abuser, we can say to the victims that we as a community don’t stand for this and we will eradicate the evil from within us and we take it out of our homes. We have to make sure children know there is no grey area and we can’t tolerate or forgive abuse or keep any remnant as part of our lives.


Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline g_t

  • DansDeals Copper Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2019
  • Posts: 12
  • Total likes: 38
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: usofa
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #394 on: December 29, 2021, 01:18:36 PM »
I could just picture the scene 400 years ago...

"All y'all ready to do some kabbalah?"

25 years ago, was in a furniture shop in Dallas, owner jumps out of his seat, "hey you guys got those zitzit! I got my own zitzit too!!" and proceeds to pull a pair out of his desk drawer. then says "I study the Kabblaah!"

Offline nbfromnj

  • Dansdeals Silver Elite
  • **
  • Join Date: Nov 2020
  • Posts: 66
  • Total likes: 47
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #395 on: December 29, 2021, 01:20:07 PM »
Warn other people?

You probably are required to warn but you must know exactly what is the right way to warn.  Just like any lashon hara l'toeles, there are very specific ways the information must be given over.

Offline dasmo801

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 312
  • Total likes: 787
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood, NJ
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #396 on: December 29, 2021, 01:21:29 PM »
Paraphrasing...

Given that so many have come forward, we can't make excuses as if this didn't happen. And then he committed suicide rather than face victims and courts.

1. Walder didn’t write book about math or science, he wrote about morality. He set himself up to be a moral compass for our children, but wasn’t able to keep his own moral compass.

His books speak to our minds and souls, but you don’t know which stories are about one of his victims who went to him at the most vulnerable point in their life, and then he abused them.

The children who say I’m the Yael, I’m the Rivkah, I’m the Leah, that he went on to abuse, they’re not going to come forward, but we know that their stories are told in these books.

2. If you think your children are too young and won’t know what he did, eventually they will know. And then they’ll ask you if you know that he was a sexual predator and when you say you did, they will ask why you read them his books. Perhaps you'll answer that it’s a grey area, but you’re setting yourself up for failure because there is no grey area for abuse, for someone who pretends to do something for Hashem’s sake, but really it’s for their own twisted desires.

3. When we say we want to hear the stories of victims and they should feel safe to come forward. This story has triggered emotions in victims who say that they would burn his books, as he used them to gain money and fame and gain access to vulnerable children. His own family is thus a victim and anyone who brought his books into their home is also a victim.

Even though he decided to leave this world, leaving survivors with no closure and no way to confront their abuser, we can say to the victims that we as a community don’t stand for this and we will eradicate the evil from within us and we take it out of our homes. We have to make sure children know there is no grey area and we can’t tolerate or forgive abuse or keep any remnant as part of our lives.

Who's speaking?

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18990
  • Total likes: 15126
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #397 on: December 29, 2021, 01:25:34 PM »

I am not confident that your conclusions about what is or isn't included in the right way are correct. Do you have sources for that?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18990
  • Total likes: 15126
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #398 on: December 29, 2021, 01:26:28 PM »
are you aware that only 1 BD in Tzfas announced the investigation?

For such a high profile case, another reputable BD, or court should get involved.

And about the hill people "choose to die on", Ahem...
Supposedly they saw psakim for others regarding some specific cases.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline TimT

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 22847
  • Total likes: 7338
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #399 on: December 29, 2021, 01:33:18 PM »
As an observer of this and other threads on DDF (and elsewhere, DDF is just usually even in these matters more mature and thoughtful than most), I notices something (may be obvious, but just to put it out there). This whole thread and many others like it can be summed up essentially as polarizing. There is really a lot of extremes on all ends being put forward. This seems to be a trend that has gotten worse in recent years all over, or maybe it always was except there were fewer forums in which to engage people who thought differently.
In any case though on this and so many other issues I can't help but wonder, where is the nuance? For example, can there be no middle ground between protecting an abuser and outing him completely and serving as judge jury and executioner on him in every whatsapp group? I don't think Rav Gershon Edelstein Shlita's point was in any way to defend this person or his actions, or to say that it should not have been dealt with in the most serious and intense matter to get to the bottom of things and then have responsible parties put out the conclusions, or even to denounce the loshon hara aspects per se that would have to have been dealt with then. I think he was just saying that it's not for every Tuvya, Dovid, and Hershel to share every bit of info from any source along with their expert opinions on the matter. Can we not agree that there should be a zero tolerance for even a hint of abuse as relates to those in a position to act upon it, and strong support for the abused to come forward in a manner in which their stories will be taken seriously and they will be protected as serious investigations and consequences ensue, but still without it becoming the talk and gossip of the town? It seems that everyone on both sides agrees that those who were hurt need to have a way to come forward, and also the accused and their families deserve some protection as well, so wouldn't letting the right people (whether that's a beis din or the authorities) handle things be the right thing without everyone needing to know and talk about it? I don't know, maybe that is not even possible any more, and if thats the reality then we need to deal with that too, but wouldn't that be the utopian solution that we can all agree that we should be striving towards? Just my two cents....
There is no middle (& certainly not today with social media). Once there’s accusations it must be made public to warn other potential victims. But by going public the accused is now destroyed. That’s just life.
Say the accused is a teacher/therapist, the minute there’s an accusation he must be removed from his job, even though his livelihood is now destroyed. Let’s say the case goes nowhere how do you ever let him teach again ? He might still be a sick predator but the victim doesn’t want to pursue it, or it was somehow settled quietly. The only way I’m ever comfortable with him going near kids again is if the victim publicly announces to the world that it was all fabricated.
It’s not fair but that’s the reality.