Author Topic: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance  (Read 7423 times)

Offline avromie7

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #100 on: December 06, 2023, 02:04:30 PM »
New Article from frum.finance! Feedback welcome https://frum.finance/auto/why-a-tesla-was-my-cheapest-option/
You may want to skip this line due to the ribis question about using a CU.
Quote
I was able to get a 4.75% rate by using a local credit union.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #101 on: December 06, 2023, 02:09:08 PM »
New Article from frum.finance! Feedback welcome https://frum.finance/auto/why-a-tesla-was-my-cheapest-option/

Tesla doesn't need new brake pads. They have 80-90% remaining at 100k miles thanks to regen braking.

The Federal tax credit will be POS in 2024, and there is no recapture if you don't owe enough.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline MiInvstr

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #102 on: December 06, 2023, 04:06:21 PM »
New Article from frum.finance! Feedback welcome https://frum.finance/auto/why-a-tesla-was-my-cheapest-option/
Interesting read. Not sure why you used a 3 year old Corolla though. Why not do the numbers with a brand new Corolla? It will be closer but still the Tesla would win.

Offline Yo ssi

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #103 on: December 06, 2023, 07:18:45 PM »
Interesting read. Not sure why you used a 3 year old Corolla though. Why not do the numbers with a brand new Corolla? It will be closer but still the Tesla would win.
Yup agreed perhaps with the new hybrid.
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Offline David61

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #104 on: December 06, 2023, 07:57:31 PM »
If its mandatory, I do not believe there is a legal way to do this. Can someone provide some sourced explanation? Every professional I ask says this is illegal.

I'm not a CPA, and I haven't read the tax code but I don't think 'mandatory' is as relevant as 'value of goods/services received'. Consider a $500 dinner or a $500 concert, where the portion of the fee equal to the value received ($100) is not deductible the rest ($400) is, even though you have to pay (mandatory) the whole $500 to attend.

If tuition fully covers the cost of running the non-profit school, one could argue the 'value of the services received' equals the school's cost per child. (That is obviously somewhat subjective)

The building fund is then a separate charge that is above that (value of services received), and could be deductible. It would take another step to extend this to those getting a large enough tuition discounts that they are paying less than the cost to the school per child.

On a related note, I have heard rabbonim quoted as saying that the portion of tuition that exceeds the non-profit school's cost per student (in essense to subsidizing tuition of other children), could be considered part of Maasar.

As a practical matter, best to consult your own Rov . . . and a CPA.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #105 on: December 06, 2023, 08:35:31 PM »
I'm not a CPA, and I haven't read the tax code but I don't think 'mandatory' is as relevant as 'value of goods/services received'. Consider a $500 dinner or a $500 concert, where the portion of the fee equal to the value received ($100) is not deductible the rest ($400) is, even though you have to pay (mandatory) the whole $500 to attend.

If tuition fully covers the cost of running the non-profit school, one could argue the 'value of the services received' equals the school's cost per child. (That is obviously somewhat subjective)

The building fund is then a separate charge that is above that (value of services received), and could be deductible. It would take another step to extend this to those getting a large enough tuition discounts that they are paying less than the cost to the school per child.
Quote

That’s some interesting logic. But if the school needs a building (which is why they include the mandatory building fund “donation”), then the “donation” also covers the non-profit school’s costs. It’s not like they’re buying a building to profit.
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Offline Sammy82

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #106 on: December 06, 2023, 10:06:59 PM »
If the IRS ever really looked into how yeshivahs operate there would be lots of problems of the yeshivahs for the staff and for the parents.

This would be a drop in the bucket https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/brooklyn-yeshiva-admits-pervasive-program-and-benefit-fraud-conspiracy
Speak for yourself (or your own yeshiva). There are many, if not most, yeshivas, bais yaakovs, and day schools that are extremely careful with this stuff, going above and beyond what is required. Unless you work for the New York Times, please don't put all in the same boat.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #107 on: December 06, 2023, 11:26:38 PM »
...the portion of tuition that exceeds the non-profit school's cost per student (in essense to subsidizing tuition of other children), could be considered part of Maasar.
How would you ever get that number? I can't imagine schools are interested in having that info out there.

Offline David61

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #108 on: December 07, 2023, 01:05:18 AM »
New Article from frum.finance! Feedback welcome https://frum.finance/auto/why-a-tesla-was-my-cheapest-option/

Interesting. Slightly different assumptions change the equation significantly.

--2020 Toyota Corolla L: 30 mpg city / 38 mpg highway / 33 mpg combined per https://www.valdostatoyota.com/2020-toyota-corolla-mpg/
--NJ average price of gas: $3.24  per. https://gasprices.aaa.com/?state=NJ
--NJ average price per Kwh, residential: 18.02 cents per https://www.energybot.com/electricity-rates/new-jersey/#:~:text=Last%20updated%20December%202023,higher%20than%20the%20national%20average).

With these assumptions, for the average NJ resident: Fuel for corolla is $98, Electric for Tesla is $45, resulting in a $53 savings per month (not $150 as suggested).

--You also failed to mention the limitations of a Tesla, in terms of flexibility/longer road trips, even to get to DC (from Lakewood) and back without a charge.
--And that the cost to repair a Tesla is higher than for a non-EV https://insideevs.com/news/692356/tesla-repairs-cost-more-than-gas-cars/#:~:text=Average%20repair%20costs%20for%20Teslas,vehicles%20in%20the%20previous%20quarter.&text=Repairs%20for%20Tesla%20EVs%20cost,Mitchell%2C%20quoted%20by%20Automotive%20News.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #109 on: December 07, 2023, 08:24:59 AM »
Interesting. Slightly different assumptions change the equation significantly.

--2020 Toyota Corolla L: 30 mpg city / 38 mpg highway / 33 mpg combined per https://www.valdostatoyota.com/2020-toyota-corolla-mpg/
--NJ average price of gas: $3.24  per. https://gasprices.aaa.com/?state=NJ
--NJ average price per Kwh, residential: 18.02 cents per https://www.energybot.com/electricity-rates/new-jersey/#:~:text=Last%20updated%20December%202023,higher%20than%20the%20national%20average).

With these assumptions, for the average NJ resident: Fuel for corolla is $98, Electric for Tesla is $45, resulting in a $53 savings per month (not $150 as suggested).

--You also failed to mention the limitations of a Tesla, in terms of flexibility/longer road trips, even to get to DC (from Lakewood) and back without a charge.
--And that the cost to repair a Tesla is higher than for a non-EV https://insideevs.com/news/692356/tesla-repairs-cost-more-than-gas-cars/#:~:text=Average%20repair%20costs%20for%20Teslas,vehicles%20in%20the%20previous%20quarter.&text=Repairs%20for%20Tesla%20EVs%20cost,Mitchell%2C%20quoted%20by%20Automotive%20News.
I recently drove my Tesla RT from Lakewood to Montreal. I had to stop to charge twice each way and every time the car was ready to go before my baby was ready.

If you go to DC, the car can charge while you're there, so you won't need to stop at all.

Additionally, AP is a game changer for long trips. It takes away are the stress, I feel like a backseat driver but still in control. I never take my other cars on long trips unless I really need the space.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline whacked1

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #110 on: December 07, 2023, 08:40:34 AM »
I recently drove my Tesla RT from Lakewood to Montreal. I had to stop to charge twice each way and every time the car was ready to go before my baby was ready.

If you go to DC, the car can charge while you're there, so you won't need to stop at all.

Additionally, AP is a game changer for long trips. It takes away are the stress, I feel like a backseat driver but still in control. I never take my other cars on long trips unless I really need the space.
I went to niagara on succos and the hotel had free ev charging for guests. (in addition to having spots right in front reserved for EVs)

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #111 on: December 07, 2023, 11:30:27 AM »
New Article from frum.finance! Feedback welcome https://frum.finance/auto/why-a-tesla-was-my-cheapest-option/
Interesting. Slightly different assumptions change the equation significantly.

--2020 Toyota Corolla L: 30 mpg city / 38 mpg highway / 33 mpg combined per https://www.valdostatoyota.com/2020-toyota-corolla-mpg/
--NJ average price of gas: $3.24  per. https://gasprices.aaa.com/?state=NJ
--NJ average price per Kwh, residential: 18.02 cents per https://www.energybot.com/electricity-rates/new-jersey/#:~:text=Last%20updated%20December%202023,higher%20than%20the%20national%20average).

With these assumptions, for the average NJ resident: Fuel for corolla is $98, Electric for Tesla is $45, resulting in a $53 savings per month (not $150 as suggested).

--And that the cost to repair a Tesla is higher than for a non-EV https
+1. Literally the only 2 items allowing the Tesla to gain back the ground lost by the difference in purchase/financing cost is fuel and maintenance repairs, and both are given overly generous estimates pro Tesla. The fuel/electric cost as mentioned is extremely dependent on personal/local assumptions (how much and what type of personal mileage, local cost of gas and cost of charging). Maintenance/repair is bit tougher since it's not quite apples to apples, but Edmunds.com has been doing the whole True Cost to Own (tm) thing for a long time, and they put the 5 year cost for those 2 items nearly spot on between a 2023 base Tesla and a 2023 base Corolla. I would guess that's actually advantage Corolla though because those estimates usually assume dealer maintenance/repair pricing - which is probably accurate for Tesla because there's not a lot of choice, but not for Corolla where you can shop around and even DIY some things.

I still think the general idea is right though - in a place like NJ where you have the extra incentives it can make a Tesla a very reasonable purchase despite an MSRP that puts it closer to luxury. And obviously you're getting a much better driving experience from the Tesla.

ETA: Some links on maintenance and repairs from another source - CarEdge.com. They have them nearly dead even after 5 years and only $500 higher on the Corolla over 10 years.
5yr
$1110 - https://caredge.com/toyota/corolla#maintenance
$1115 - https://caredge.com/tesla/model-3#maintenance
10yr
$4087 - https://caredge.com/toyota/corolla/maintenance
$3587 - https://caredge.com/tesla/model-3/maintenance
« Last Edit: December 07, 2023, 11:40:02 AM by skyguy918 »

Offline Unusual

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #112 on: December 07, 2023, 03:58:20 PM »
I see nobody answered the complaints against those who don't get life insurance for themselves, and I don't understand why.

We don't account for all chances, it's as simple as that. People don't get life insurance because they can't afford it when they are young, and/or in Kollel. They don't think they will die young,a nd they have a point. The chances of any individual dying young enough to need life insurance is quite low.

If such a person does die, and their family is poor, the Torah tells you to give them Tzedaka. Considering them to have 'relied on you without asking' is your perspective, not the truth.

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #113 on: December 07, 2023, 07:53:18 PM »
I see nobody answered the complaints against those who don't get life insurance for themselves, and I don't understand why.

We don't account for all chances, it's as simple as that. People don't get life insurance because they can't afford it when they are young, and/or in Kollel. They don't think they will die young,a nd they have a point. The chances of any individual dying young enough to need life insurance is quite low.

If such a person does die, and their family is poor, the Torah tells you to give them Tzedaka. Considering them to have 'relied on you without asking' is your perspective, not the truth.
?

Offline AsherO

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #114 on: December 07, 2023, 07:57:53 PM »
I see nobody answered the complaints against those who don't get life insurance for themselves, and I don't understand why.

We don't account for all chances, it's as simple as that. People don't get life insurance because they can't afford it when they are young, and/or in Kollel. They don't think they will die young,a nd they have a point. The chances of any individual dying young enough to need life insurance is quite low.

If such a person does die, and their family is poor, the Torah tells you to give them Tzedaka. Considering them to have 'relied on you without asking' is your perspective, not the truth.

Insurance price goes up as the risk increases. We don’t buy insurance because the chance/risk is low, we buy because the cost of someone dying at a young age when their family depends on them is catastrophic.

The fact that others have the obligation to give tzedakah doesn’t absolve anyone of their own responsibilities towards their family. If they’re so poor they actually can’t afford it, that’s one thing, but likely not what we’re talking about here. Someone who can afford insurance and simply doesn’t prioritize it is a פושע, he can’t claim the אונס of poverty.
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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #115 on: December 07, 2023, 10:05:13 PM »
It isn't claiming that they are necessary to become financially stable...

We don't feel comfortable taking someone on as a client if they aren't taking steps to protect their family from disaster to just become a charity campaign when something goes wrong. It's just about the balance of risk/energy/investment/time the organization is able to make for the clients. It's A LOT of resources provided to clients at ABSOLUTELY no cost, so we need to make sure there is some baseline of investment into their financial security on their end.

Fully transparency, the only one that we are incredibly strict with is making sure clients have enough life insurance.
Translation: we have limited resources so we are targeting the relatively low hanging fruit who already show some signs of responsibility and financial discipline. Makes sense.

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #116 on: December 07, 2023, 10:25:45 PM »
New Article from frum.finance! Feedback welcome https://frum.finance/auto/why-a-tesla-was-my-cheapest-option/
YMMV. There are a number of issues with the calculations. According to Insurify, the average premium is over $100 a month more for an electric vehicle.

https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/ev-repair-expensive-eecf09fd

Your calculations are based on a very low risk profile hence a smaller discrepancy. You are also calculating costs based on home charging. Charging stations can cost 25 to 50 cents per kilowatt hour.

Also actual Tesla mileage numbers in real world driving conditions are around 26% lower than the EPA average according to car and driver tests.

https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/cars/electric-cars-driving-range-d9839e5d

This has a significant impact on costs per mile driven. You are also using a gas price basis of $3.75 a gallon and projecting that out over 12 years. Gas is actually closer to $3.00 and has actually average in the 2 to 3 dollar range for most of the last 10 years.

Additionally, electric vehicle owners are currently benefiting from a quirk in the national Highway funding formula, as well as state transportation funding, in which combustion engine vehicles foot the bill for all  highway and transportation costs and gives electric vehicle owners a free pass. There is much talk about assessing a fee on electric vehicles. It is almost a given that over the 12 year lifespan, a significant fee will start being assessed as more cars on the road are electric. This will probably rival the tax on gas vehicles, currently around 60 cents a gallon. That fee will probably be assessed at an equivalent miles driven basis for electric vehicles going forward.

Lastly there is currently a social status associated with driving a Tesla that has a real world impact; schools, camps, shuls, and other organizations are far  less likely to agree to give scholarships and membership discounts to someone driving a Tesla, even if the numbers make sense.


« Last Edit: December 07, 2023, 10:35:52 PM by jye »

Offline avromie7

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #117 on: December 07, 2023, 10:57:47 PM »
YMMV. There are a number of issues with the calculations. According to Insurify, the average premium is over $100 a month more for an electric vehicle.
It depends on the insurance company. Geico is very expensive, I have Allstate and the difference was minimal compared to my 7 y/o camry with 90k miles.(I don't remember exactly but definitely under $100 for a 6 month term.)
Quote
https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/ev-repair-expensive-eecf09fd

Your calculations are based on a very low risk profile hence a smaller discrepancy. You are also calculating costs based on home charging. Charging stations can cost 25 to 50 cents per kilowatt hour.
The overwhelming majority of charging is done at home, so this doesn't really matter. Even public charging is not more expensive than gas.
Quote
Also actual Tesla mileage numbers in real world driving conditions are around 26% lower than the EPA average according to car and driver tests.

https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/cars/electric-cars-driving-range-d9839e5d
I averaged 3.8 miles per kWh over the past 13k miles.
Quote
This has a significant impact on costs per mile driven. You are also using a gas price basis of $3.75 a gallon and projecting that out over 12 years. Gas is actually closer to $3.00 and has actually average in the 2 to 3 dollar range for most of the last 10 years.
I wouldn't bet on gas averaging under $3 for the next 12 years.
Quote
Additionally, electric vehicle owners are currently benefiting from a quirk in the national Highway funding formula, as well as state transportation funding, in which combustion engine vehicles foot the bill for all  highway and transportation costs and gives electric vehicle owners a free pass. There is much talk about assessing a fee on electric vehicles. It is almost a given that over the 12 year lifespan, a significant fee will start being assessed as more cars on the road are electric. This will probably rival the tax on gas vehicles, currently around 60 cents a gallon. That fee will probably be assessed at an equivalent miles driven basis for electric vehicles going forward.
It'll probably take quite a few years to be passed.
Quote
Lastly there is currently a social status associated with driving a Tesla that has a real world impact; schools, camps, shuls, and other organizations are far  less likely to agree to give scholarships and membership discounts to someone driving a Tesla, even if the numbers make sense.
It's become very clearly over the past year that a Tesla is not an expensive car. No one looks and says "you drive a base M3, you must be rich". A Model X or S is a different story.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #118 on: December 08, 2023, 12:09:54 AM »
It depends on the insurance company. Geico is very expensive, I have Allstate and the difference was minimal compared to my 7 y/o camry with 90k miles.(I don't remember exactly but definitely under $100 for a 6 month term.)The overwhelming majority of charging is done at home, so this doesn't really matter. Even public charging is not more expensive than gas. I averaged 3.8 miles per kWh over the past 13k miles.I wouldn't bet on gas averaging under $3 for the next 12 years.  It'll probably take quite a few years to be passed.  It's become very clearly over the past year that a Tesla is not an expensive car. No one looks and says "you drive a base M3, you must be rich". A Model X or S is a different story.
Take a survey in your neighborhood. Do people look at the guy who got a new Tesla as
1) potentially a poor guy who deserves a major tuition scholarship or
2) a guy who must be doing ok for himself
Then get back to DDF with the result. You may be in for a surprise.

Offline David61

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Re: Personal Finance Flowchart by Frum Finance
« Reply #119 on: December 08, 2023, 12:29:18 AM »
Lastly there is currently a social status associated with driving a Tesla that has a real world impact; schools, camps, shuls, and other organizations are far  less likely to agree to give scholarships and membership discounts to someone driving a Tesla, even if the numbers make sense.

This is an intriguing comment, perhaps deserving of it's own thread.

--What other spending/behavior/savings are likely to affect scholarships? And, in turn, how does that dynamic that influence individual's spending and other financial decisions, either in
--constrain certain spending, or
--incentivizing spending more (e.g. on housing, renovations/home improvements, clothing, extra car etc) if it's perceived that additional savings/assets will result in a material reduction in tuition scholarships etc."   

P.s. I assume for most families mandatory shul fees are much smaller than camp fees, and camp fees are much smaller than tuition fees, so I assume it's primarily about the impact on tuition. (Though it may also create unwanted pressure/expectations to contribute more generously to various causes than you are comfortable with, if others perceive you as more affluent).
« Last Edit: December 08, 2023, 12:33:58 AM by David61 »