Radical "Terrorist" Gang Digs Tunnels And Breaks 770 Wall

[ExGingi]

wow

I'm surprised at your "wow" towards an unsubstantiated outrageous claim.

[ExGingi]

I was actually just thinking about this. As I believe I mentioned on Zev Brenner (and if not certainly in one of my VNs that went around), one sees that just about all the vehement condemnation and criticism of that bochurim that's come out in the past two weeks (including from some otherwise serious people, and including from some in this thread) has been all התפעלות, all Middos and no Sechel. It's difficult to have a dialogue with someone when you give him a reasoned argument, and in response he just calls you an evil terrorist.

Because you have been exhibiting not only Sechel, but rather מוחין דגדלות, being able to advocate for and accept a position that is not yours. 

[Euclid]

I'm surprised at your "wow" towards an unsubstantiated outrageous claim.

He was clearly "wowing" (what he feels is) the absurdity of the statement

[TheAsh]

Arguing with Eitan770 is like arguing with a flat earther. He lives in a different reality than everyone here, which he clearly is modeh to.

Just kick the bums out, don't reason with them.

[aygart]

I'm surprised at your "wow" towards an unsubstantiated outrageous claim.

He was clearly "wowing" (what he feels is) the absurdity of the statement

It is a wow ממה נפשך

[Galitzyaner]

@eitan770 BTW I actually appreciate you being here and chiming in FWIW.

You really do seem to be a nice person who is possibly capable of thinking sensibly and behaving civilized.
I feel very sorry for you that you got פארבלאנדזשעט in to this group of hoodlums. You seem out of place with them.
It's never too late to rectify your past, become a BT again, and join a group that truly follows the Torah שדרכיה דרכי נועם וכל נתיבותיה שלום .
גדול השלום, שכל התורה ניתנה לעשות שלום בעולם!

[dovy2]

disclaimer: I'm not justifying AT ALL what happened. Judging from the OUTCOME, this was a terrible, horrible, and sad episode.
That being said,  I just want to point out, that if this wasn't done by these people, but by a group of non-meshichist, something inside of me says that the backslash wouldn't have been even close to the way it is happening now.
and if this story had happened 15 years ago, before the social media craze, it wouldn't have been mushc of a "horrible story" either. IOW, the issue here is the chilul hashem which was caused, lav davka the actual nezek.
Yes, this was a reckless wild idea - but judging from the actual nezek done - (not judging from the outcomes) - I think the backlash is more agenda-driven.
should they have thought about what the outcome could have been - that's something to discuss.
Was it a super duper dangerous excavation - that's also a discussion/argument to have.
But after going through pages upon pages of these threads - that's not what's being discussed here.

[imayid2]

Lol, we have a Doodle thread on this already

here

[ExGingi]

disclaimer: I'm not justifying AT ALL what happened. Judging from the OUTCOME, this was a terrible, horrible, and sad episode.

So based on the OUTCOME, should anyone, just maybe, acknowledge that they were wrong and misguided?

[dovy2]

So based on the OUTCOME, should anyone, just maybe, acknowledge that they were wrong and misguided?

Yes, I acknowledge that

[and speaking of outcomes, I think CH.info has a big part in it too... most of the chilul Hashem was caused due to "tunnel" wording which was coined by CH.info few weeks prior]

[aygart]

Lol, we have a Doodle thread on this already

Mentioned multiple times by R' Shlomo Zarchi in the video of Hanholo meeting for which I posted a link (not tagging it to view inline in the forums) above.

Well, I guess this thread answers this question from there.

You want to know if rabonei Chabad approve of anonymous comments on the internet using the phrase "chilul Lubavitch."

[ExGingi]

Yes, I acknowledge that

How about those that are advocating for the actions, including on the ZB show and elsewhere.

[Dan]

So based on the OUTCOME, should anyone, just maybe, acknowledge that they were wrong and misguided?

Or readable:

[Chuchum Ainer]

....the fact is that they created more room that could easily be occupied by the shul. Did they finish the expansion? Of course not. But they certainly started and did a great deal of the work, and showed that it would be very easy and within reach to finish. It's a shame that fear of remote consequences and hatred of the bochurim prevailed over sechel in the "authorities'" response to that work.

(Emphasis added)

Here's the part I still don't get.

I'll accept that you actually believe in your alternate reality and ideology, where all authority is to be hated and the secret answers you are getting from igros (which you didn't share) are the guiding force behind what was almost a very successful project--supported by a "silent majority"--to expand the incredibly peaceful and calm shul at 770, where, until the moment Mario and Luigi popped out of the underworld, no one has ever been hurt or threatened (the testimony and impressions of other DDF members with known real life identities notwithstanding).

What I don't understand is how you can call this excavation (I'll use whatever term you want) an almost completed job to create another room in the shul. From the dimensions I read and the pictures I saw, the ceiling would be way too low, (5 feet at time of discovery?) So the entire women's section would have to be raised to accommodate it. So digging (or to use your preferred term, removing dirt) out that spot was a tiny part of the proccess, raising the building is so much more.

Now forget the complete lack of permits, electricity, exits or entrances, and destabilizing the whole building.

How can you call it "very easy...to finish?"

You also mention "hatred of the bochurim". If bochurim were involved (and I'm assuming the translation here is yeshiva students. Not bachelors.) wouldn't their administration be relevant? Why would you say

I'm not sure why you're analyzing this story from a bochurim/hanholah lens, as Hanholas Hayeshiva was not involved at all.

Like, if some guys at the Yeshiva Gedolah near me started breaking the wall of the basement of the shul next door, I'd assume people would ask where their Rosh Yeshiva stands on the matter, especially if they say that al pi halacha and the principles of the Yeshiva, they must liberate that cholent from its internment in the kitchen.

[eitan770]

Can you type up what you intended to say on Zev Brenner and to the NYP? The ZB interview is unwatchable, as you noted.

I would like to at some point; we'll see if/when I get the time. (This thread has already taken up much more than I had anticipated.)

[eitan770]

I more "on your side" than you might believe when it comes to 770, but this is disingenuous at best. There has been plenty of violence and large scale fighting, there is the constant threat of violence if someone so much as walks or stands ("where they don't belong", not to mentions the dozens of individuals who can't step foot in 770 for fear of being physically attacked. To deny this is just foolish.

And this is just violence against people and doesn't get into the vandalism, screaming and shouting etc. Entire events with thousands of people have been ruined by the same anarchists.

I think you have unfortunately absorbed a narrative which is certainly out there, but is almost entirely divorced from reality. I would be very interested to see a list of incidents of "violence and large scale fighting" from the years 2013-2023. Because I was in 770 that entire time, and here are the ones I remember.

- Fighting over the Antis' Moshiach shiur in the back in mid-5775 or 76 - which interestingly was davka the "moderates" and not the Muktzanim.
- Fight over the (attempted) Reshimos Shiur in mid-5778.

That's it. Other than that, all I've ever seen are small scuffles and shoving here and there, Mesivta bochurim having fun, Frenchies during Tishrei, etc. - but no real major violence.

The idea that there are "dozens of individuals who can't step foot in 770 for fear of being physically attacked" today is laughable. It's a relic of the Nuns and Samechs, and even then the list was never "dozens." I'm actually not sure there's even one such person today. Even Yudel Krinsky could probably walk in now and no one would care. (I happen to think that, given the current intra-Anti fights, the Meshichistim should davka be cultivating a relationship with him, but אכ"מ). I'm sure you know that in the last five years of his life, R' Yoel came downstairs frequently. Berel Shemtov came a few years ago without incident. You've likely heard the old vort that Yudel doesn't come downstairs because he's afraid they'll throw eggs at him, and Moshe Kotlarsky doesn't come downstairs because he's a afraid that no one will throw eggs at him...

[eitan770]

disclaimer: I'm not justifying AT ALL what happened. Judging from the OUTCOME, this was a terrible, horrible, and sad episode.
That being said,  I just want to point out, that if this wasn't done by these people, but by a group of non-meshichist, something inside of me says that the backslash wouldn't have been even close to the way it is happening now.
and if this story had happened 15 years ago, before the social media craze, it wouldn't have been mushc of a "horrible story" either. IOW, the issue here is the chilul hashem which was caused, lav davka the actual nezek.
Yes, this was a reckless wild idea - but judging from the actual nezek done - (not judging from the outcomes) - I think the backlash is more agenda-driven.
should they have thought about what the outcome could have been - that's something to discuss.
Was it a super duper dangerous excavation - that's also a discussion/argument to have.
But after going through pages upon pages of these threads - that's not what's being discussed here.

I don't think any sincere person could even argue otherwise.

[Yehuda57]

I think you have unfortunately absorbed a narrative which is certainly out there, but is almost entirely divorced from reality. I would be very interested to see a list of incidents of "violence and large scale fighting" from the years 2013-2023. Because I was in 770 that entire time, and here are the ones I remember.

- Fighting over the Antis' Moshiach shiur in the back in mid-5775 or 76 - which interestingly was davka the "moderates" and not the Muktzanim.
- Fight over the (attempted) Reshimos Shiur in mid-5778.

That's it. Other than that, all I've ever seen are small scuffles and shoving here and there, Mesivta bochurim having fun, Frenchies during Tishrei, etc. - but no real major violence.

The idea that there are "dozens of individuals who can't step foot in 770 for fear of being physically attacked" today is laughable. It's a relic of the Nuns and Samechs, and even then the list was never "dozens." I'm actually not sure there's even one such person today. Even Yudel Krinsky could probably walk in now and no one would care. (I happen to think that, given the current intra-Anti fights, the Meshichistim should davka be cultivating a relationship with him, but אכ"מ). I'm sure you know that in the last five years of his life, R' Yoel came downstairs frequently. Berel Shemtov came a few years ago without incident. You've likely heard the old vort that Yudel doesn't come downstairs because he's afraid they'll throw eggs at him, and Moshe Kotlarsky doesn't come downstairs because he's a afraid that no one will throw eggs at him...

Far from me swallowing a narrative, you are blind. As I said, I'm more "on your side" when it comes to the politics of 770 than the names you mentioned.

The reality is that in the current status quo, the average Lubavitcher feels a degree of discomfort entering 770. How much discomfort varies, but it's there for most. Do you even realize that? Or are you completely blind to that in the same way you are blind to the anarchy and overall threat of violence that hangs over 770 which enforces the current status quo? Play the wrong video? The DVD gets cracked. Omit a slogan? The mic gets stolen. Any flier or sign with an unapproved logo or word, gets ripped. Screaming and shouting over people is common place. The only reason there haven't been more fist fights is because no one dares challenge the status quo in any way.

Maybe these days if I walk through the shvil I won't be physically removed. But how many people were roughed up for that over the years so that now disingenuous people like you can claim "we're not violent!"?

You say as a defense that Reb Yoel came down to 770 in his last years without realizing how insane it is to tacitly admit he couldn't come down for years for fear of being accosted if not physically attacked! Reb Yoel!

You think 770 isn't violent because it's been years since someone's legs were broken. But you fail to realize that the vast majority of Lubavitchers are uncomfortable in their own home because a small group holds it hostage with the threat of attacking anyone or anything who challenges them. It's often small things like standing somewhere innocently and all of a sudden the clock strikes a certain time and you are removed.

The story I wrote above with the goons telling the Rebbe when to come out for dollars sums up the situation. You have a small group who decides what should happen in 770, this becomes "the Rebbe's view" of what should be happening, and any attempt to challenge, or even an unwitting challenge gets shut down with goonish behavior that can be dismissed as "chaos, not violence".

It's enough.

It's time to expand 770. Not just the space, but to expand it's welcome to all, not just those who are willing to accept or turn a blind eye to whatever this year's kvutzah decided is the Rebbe's ratzon.

[eitan770]

(Emphasis added)

Here's the part I still don't get.

I'll accept that you actually believe in your alternate reality and ideology, where all authority is to be hated and the secret answers you are getting from igros (which you didn't share) are the guiding force behind what was almost a very successful project--supported by a "silent majority"--to expand the incredibly peaceful and calm shul at 770, where, until the moment Mario and Luigi popped out of the underworld, no one has ever been hurt or threatened (the testimony and impressions of other DDF members with known real life identities notwithstanding).

I don't think a "nu nu" was ever more appropriate. 😂

What I don't understand is how you can call this excavation (I'll use whatever term you want) an almost completed job to create another room in the shul. From the dimensions I read and the pictures I saw, the ceiling would be way too low, (5 feet at time of discovery?) So the entire women's section would have to be raised to accommodate it. So digging (or to use your preferred term, removing dirt) out that spot was a tiny part of the proccess, raising the building is so much more.

Now forget the complete lack of permits, electricity, exits or entrances, and destabilizing the whole building.

How can you call it "very easy...to finish?"

I don't recall saying it was "almost finished," I said it would be very easy to finish. Those are not the same thing. Raising the floor of the women's section is very doable, and the flooring, electricity, etc. was all done for a similar expansion in the women's section upstairs last year (the person behind which was ready to come in and finish this one, with funding) in a matter of a few months.

The building was never destabilized by any of the excavation, and in fact was probably more stable afterwards, since they took out dirt (which wasn't touching the floor above it, and put in support beams.

You also mention "hatred of the bochurim". If bochurim were involved (and I'm assuming the translation here is yeshiva students. Not bachelors.) wouldn't their administration be relevant? Why would you say

Quote from: eitan770 on Today at 04:18:34 PM
I'm not sure why you're analyzing this story from a bochurim/hanholah lens, as Hanholas Hayeshiva was not involved at all.

Like, if some guys at the Yeshiva Gedolah near me started breaking the wall of the basement of the shul next door, I'd assume people would ask where their Rosh Yeshiva stands on the matter, especially if they say that al pi halacha and the principles of the Yeshiva, they must liberate that cholent from its internment in the kitchen.

I didn't say whether Hanhola should or shouldn't have been involved, just stating a fact that they weren't. (Though it should be noted that, since 770 Yeshiva is located inside a shul, Hanholas HaYeshiva had no connection to the gashmius of the premises, which are administered by the Gabboim of the shul. There are occasionally tensions over who should be paying for different things.)

[eitan770]

Far from me swallowing a narrative, you are blind. As I said, I'm more "on your side" when it comes to the politics of 770 than the names you mentioned.

The reality is that in the current status quo, the average Lubavitcher feels a degree of discomfort entering 770. How much discomfort varies, but it's there for most. Do you even realize that? Or are you completely blind to that in the same way you are blind to the anarchy and overall threat of violence that hangs over 770 which enforces the current status quo? Play the wrong video? The DVD gets cracked. Omit a slogan? The mic gets stolen. Any flier or sign with an unapproved logo or word, gets ripped. Screaming and shouting over people is common place. The only reason there haven't been more fist fights is because no one dares challenge the status quo in any way.

Maybe these days if I walk through the shvil I won't be physically removed. But how many people were roughed up for that over the years so that now disingenuous people like you can claim "we're not violent!"?

You say as a defense that Reb Yoel came down to 770 in his last years without realizing how insane it is to tacitly admit he couldn't come down for years for fear of being accosted if not physically attacked! Reb Yoel!

You think 770 isn't violent because it's been years since someone's legs were broken. But you fail to realize that the vast majority of Lubavitchers are uncomfortable in their own home because a small group holds it hostage with the threat of attacking anyone or anything who challenges them. It's often small things like standing somewhere innocently and all of a sudden the clock strikes a certain time and you are removed.

The story I wrote above with the goons telling the Rebbe when to come out for dollars sums up the situation. You have a small group who decides what should happen in 770, this becomes "the Rebbe's view" of what should be happening, and any attempt to challenge, or even an unwitting challenge gets shut down with goonish behavior that can be dismissed as "chaos, not violence".

It's enough.

It's time to expand 770. Not just the space, but to expand it's welcome to all, not just those who are willing to accept or turn a blind eye to whatever this year's kvutzah decided is the Rebbe's ratzon.

So you are essentially conceding my point, just arguing that the only reason there isn't violence is that everyone terrified of the big, bad, Tzfatis. I think that's silly, but whatever.

I think you are seriously exaggerating the number of Lubavitchers who feel uncomfortable coming to 770 nowadays, but if that is true, and you saw the crowds that were just here for Yud Shvat (and every Tishrei), you should thanking those "goons." Imagine how dangerously packed the place would be without them!