Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[aygart]

I'm really bothered by the insinuation by some here that a camp without a formal hechsher is serving treif.

I think what separates all the crazy stories from the others is the lack of a rav hamachshir. A posek who takes responsibility for the kashrus in the kitchen.

It doesn't even need to be a posek. There needs to be a proper system set up by people who understand how to do it, usually someone from a hechsher, and then have a certain amount of responsible people in charge while having an agreed upon posek to decide any shaylos. This was the initiative that @moko discussed last summer. They did not give a hechsher to camps but rather reviewed their system to make sure it is something that can work.

[aygart]

The yeshivish fellow using a pareve sheetpan to bake pizza - when asked Ma zeh - the answer is "Its pareve...". Same guy, same day, using pareve sheet pan for hot dogs - same question - same answer...

Using the deep fryer just used for frying fish to fry shnitzel - when the bachur who was "mashgiach" saw what happening, called his rav, was told "let it cool, clean it out, change the oil... chamira sakanta..." stops whats going on... leaves for a bit... comes back and finds that "we asked a magid shiur on campus and he said it's fine" (a fine magid shiur, but just that - no yoreh deah experience)

The non jewish assistant cook wanted to use hs own private knives (you know chefs...). He claimed that "he only uses them for Kosher". The owner and main cook got in to a huge fight over it - with the yeshivish owner, who "learns all year" siding with the goyish assistant cook!!!
What did they do about the NYS kosher laws? Well, the brother in law (and silent shutaf) of the owner works for an international kashrus org in a foreign country. On the disclosure forms they wrote him as the supervising Rabbi, with his kashrus org affiliation. In my 7 years in the camp, the man was there once and needed a guided tour to help him find the kitchen. He had nothing to do with it at all.

Each of these are questions on the yiras shomayim of the individual. A magid shiur who will pasken items he is not knowledgable about shouldn't be trusted with bochurim. The guy who "learns all year" but is willing to decide on a baseless halacha may be better off with a year round job instead of learning and then serving treif. I question how much someone like that is learning anyhow. Someone ready to give a stamp on a camp will also do it elsewhere and his hechsher should probably be avoided anywhere.

Each of these are questions on the individual's chezkas kashrus and whether they can be believed for anything.

[imayid2]

Each of these are questions on the yiras shomayim of the individual. A magid shiur who will pasken items he is not knowledgable about shouldn't be trusted with bochurim.

It is an understandable mistake, not quite mefurash, and we are meikal for bliyos keilim.

[yfr bachur]

Each of these are questions on the yiras shomayim of the individual. A magid shiur who will pasken items he is not knowledgable about shouldn't be trusted with bochurim. The guy who "learns all year" but is willing to decide on a baseless halacha may be better off with a year round job instead of learning and then serving treif. I question how much someone like that is learning anyhow. Someone ready to give a stamp on a camp will also do it elsewhere and his hechsher should probably be avoided anywhere.

Each of these are questions on the individual's chezkas kashrus and whether they can be believed for anything.

In fairness to some of the people involved - the pizza was a clueless 18-22 year old bachur, i have no idea how exactly the shayla was presented (if at all!) to the magid shiur, and I'm sure the shutaf would have been shocked at what was going on under his alegged auspices and was just relying on his trusted shutaf/B-i-L.

the owner - well just shows you how far monetary negius an affect you...

The point is the hefkeirus of the situation.

It is an understandable mistake, not quite mefurash, and we are meikal for bliyos keilim.

Not bliyos - same exact oil.

[imayid2]

Not bliyos - same exact oil.

The problem with the oil is that it’s בלוע

[yfr bachur]

The problem with the oil is that it’s בלוע

or if you didn't clean it out at all contains actual fish that fell to the bottom....

[aygart]

The problem with the oil is that it’s בלוע

and lach blach just like chicken soup. We've gone through this before.

[aygart]

It is an understandable mistake, not quite mefurash, and we are meikal for bliyos keilim.

oh I can hear why someone who isn't well versed may say that and compare different cases that are incomparable, but that means he wasn't honest with himself about how well he knows the topic.

[avromie7]

It doesn't even need to be a posek. There needs to be a proper system set up by people who understand how to do it, usually someone from a hechsher, and then have a certain amount of responsible people in charge while having an agreed upon posek to decide any shaylos. This was the initiative that @moko discussed last summer. They did not give a hechsher to camps but rather reviewed their system to make sure it is something that can work.

Even better. I'd like to believe this is the case in the overwhelming majority of camps.

[yfr bachur]

Even better. I'd like to believe this is the case in the overwhelming majority of camps.

If this was the case, I doubt there would have been a need for last years initiative...

[avromie7]

If this was the case, I doubt there would have been a need for last years initiative...

The need would be because there are some where this is not the case.

[aygart]

Even better. I'd like to believe this is the case in the overwhelming majority of camps.

I would love to believe it too but then reality strikes. Yeshiva kitchens next on the agenda.

[aygart]

The need would be because there are some where this is not the case.

I don't think those were his findings

[imayid2]

Keeping it Kosher at Summer Camp
With summer around the corner, Rabbi Moshe Kaufman, Kashrus Administrator for KVH Kosher ~ Rabbinical Council of New England, takes us on a guided tour through a typical camp kitchen.
https://www.kashrusawareness.com/post/s-more-kashrus-please

[TheAsh]

From first hand experience - this is the sad truth.
I've posted some of these horror stories before - and remember they all happened in the span of two summers!
serving pasta infested with bugs.
keilim mixed to the point of that if you looked carefully through the grime on the sheetpans - some were painted blue on one end and red on the other.
becuase agri had a clearance sale months after the rubashkin arrest - buying OU only meat products (no additional hechsher) for a tzibur that wouldn't touch such stuff in their house.
Not takeing challa from cakes and pancakes (in commerical quanteties - it's mechuyav in challa)
The yeshivish fellow using a pareve sheetpan to bake pizza - when asked Ma zeh - the answer is "Its pareve...". Same guy, same day, using pareve sheet pan for hot dogs - same question - same answer...
Not checking eggs.
Using the deep fryer just used for frying fish to fry shnitzel - when the bachur who was "mashgiach" saw what happening, called his rav, was told "let it cool, clean it out, change the oil... chamira sakanta..." stops whats going on... leaves for a bit... comes back and finds that "we asked a magid shiur on campus and he said it's fine" (a fine magid shiur, but just that - no yoreh deah experience)
zero oversight on mixing keilim
The non jewish assistant cook wanted to use hs own private knives (you know chefs...). He claimed that "he only uses them for Kosher". The owner and main cook got in to a huge fight over it - with the yeshivish owner, who "learns all year" siding with the goyish assistant cook!!!
What did they do about the NYS kosher laws? Well, the brother in law (and silent shutaf) of the owner works for an international kashrus org in a foreign country. On the disclosure forms they wrote him as the supervising Rabbi, with his kashrus org affiliation. In my 7 years in the camp, the man was there once and needed a guided tour to help him find the kitchen. He had nothing to do with it at all.
Forget about bishul yisroel on anything done in the oven. (auto turn off when you open the door...)
Who lit the pilot light??

these are just the stories I remember of the top of my head...

All this in a camp owned by a guy from lakewood, run by people from lakewood, mainly catering to yeshivish people from lakewood/monsey/flatbush. - and gedolim from lakewood and other places came and ate there!! without doing zero checking on the kashrus! (I remember this everytime we have a discussion about a certain hotel in JLM and people say "but they say Rav Ploni ate there")

1) OU meat is perfectly fine.  Not the same as anything else in your list at all!

2) maybe the gedolim hold like Rav Reuven Feinstein.

[TheAsh]

The level of supervision described here seems very basic. I suspect it’s literally the ABCs of kosher that those places listed are more susceptible to and are being taken care of.  Probably isn’t giving them more mileage in avoiding complex mess ups beyond that. More religious places are probably doing that already.

Notice that Aguda of Toronto isn’t listed, despite some members of COR rabbinical board spending their summer there IIRC

1) COR is an extremely reliable le organization. I doubt their supervision is basic.

2) the agudah not having supervision was precisely the issue.

[TheAsh]

I would love to believe it too but then reality strikes. Yeshiva kitchens next on the agenda.

In sure everyone here knows the story many years back where they fou d out the non-Jewish cook was adding (cholov yisroel) butter to the cholent every week, and they only found out after the bochrim wanted to know why it tasted so good...

[imayid2]

1) COR is an extremely reliable le organization. I doubt their supervision is basic.

Sounds more like they give a staff member a basic crash course than providing them with a full time mashgiach of theirs.

[TheAsh]

Anyone know whats precisely treif in Sour Patch Kids?

[Dan]

Tunnel Kosher?