Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[imayid2]

Why? From The Torahs viewpoint, עד אלד נאמן באיסורים, so it is all the same, barring extreme negligence or dishonesty.

Been discussed many times here why עד אחד נאמן doesn't work in all cases

[moko]

Why? From The Torahs viewpoint, עד אלד נאמן באיסורים, so it is all the same, barring extreme negligence or dishonesty.

please define ....

[aygart]

Why? From The Torahs viewpoint, עד אלד נאמן באיסורים, so it is all the same, barring extreme negligence or dishonesty.

They can be believed about what they are telling you but what is it that they are telling you? They also need to be capable of understanding that subject matter that they are testifying about

[TheAsh]

please define ....

Cup k. Ikc. The person is lying or doesn't care.

[moko]

Cup k. Ikc.

obviously.....though they'll claim they care very much, as does lighthouse K and Tablet k. They claim to care about the consumer far more than traditional kashrus agencies.

The person is lying

you'd be surprised which agencies fall into that category

doesn't care.

if they claim to care but have not educated themselves in the basics of kashrus supervision or are not constantly working on improving, where does that fall? This opens the door to many more agencies

[yfr bachur]

Why? From The Torahs viewpoint, עד אלד נאמן באיסורים, so it is all the same, barring extreme negligence or dishonesty.

I'm going to assume that you're not trolling and deserve a good answer. So i'll give a few points based on the knowledge I have ammased over time, I do not work in hashgacha, I do not have smicha, and I'm sure that most of this must be common knowledge and there are much greater talmidie chachamim here too.

The Chazal, based on the torah do have a klal called Eid Echad Neeman Beisurin, the question is it's exact relevance here, and how.
Furthermore if we have this klal, why do we need hashgacha at all? Just believe the proprietor...

A. Takana of the Vaad Arbah Aratzos. while it is a shayla if and who today is obligated by these takanos, the VAA made a takana that we may NOT rely on EA when the EA is selling what he is giving eidus on - rather he must be "certified" by "eiza rav oh av beis din" (if i remember the lashon correctly). Many parts of klal yisroel have behaved as if they accepted the takanos for a nice amount of time (and an additional shayla is that even if they are not actually mechuyav by the original takanos, they may be mechuyav to continue the hanhaga bec of chazaka in hanhaga tova.)

B. What eidus is the Eid echad saying? Is he saying eidus at all?
So a guy w/ a kippa is selling cookies. He has a sign that says Kol motzrim badatz/only heimisher hechsheirim. Is that eidus that the cookies are kosher? that theres no lard in the cookies? that the keilim are kosher? that their not bb"c? That they're not maase shabbos? takroves avoda zara? that he took challa off from the baked cookies?

C. on what basis is he saying the eidus (this is an intrinsic part of eidus - i.e. HOW do you know?).
So one hechsher (if you ask them  ) says that "well, we had a talk with Gerolamo Silvestro and he gave us his word of honor that he'll only serve kosher products, and so therefore we certify him kosher (though we never explained to him what kosher means and we haven't been back bec he mails us his check every year)"
whereas another hechsher says "I personally inspect every package that is brought in to the store for a recognized acceptable larger hechsher and here's the list of such hechsherim and I am so devoted to the cause of kashrus in this store that I run my entire life around it and never leave (that's why the meeting is here  and I'm not married  ) and I know 1000% that no product enters w/o me knowing about it
Are they both the same EA neaman!?

[aygart]

Cup k. Ikc. The person is lying or doesn't care.

Let's say they are of the position that any vegetarian restaurant is automatically kosher with no supervision. Are they telling you anything more than that The restaurant is vegetarian?

[Essen est zich]

Best post on kashrus in a very long time!
Can we, like, pin a slightly shortened version of this in the wiki? and in the wiki of other kashrus related threads?

I added one line to the wiki for ref to the post.

[mevinyavin]

Why? From The Torahs viewpoint, עד אלד נאמן באיסורים, so it is all the same, barring extreme negligence or dishonesty.

Including all the above responses, I had a funny conversation with Rabbi Berkovits regarding trusting private people. This rehashes some of what @yfr bachur posted using different words and on a slightly different subject.
I came into marriage with an almost gullible trust in people I knew (not everyone, but those I knew). In contrast, my wife trusted nobody. (Really, she was paranoid about kashrus of others. When she was away from her hometown, she used to cold-call wives of Rabbanim to eat there for Shabbos, because she didn't know who else to trust.) So I went to consult with the Rav - who is right? You can be sure I brought up eid echad (they aren't selling me food, they sent a tray for the neighbor's sholom zochor...).
Rabbi Berkovits responded that we are both right. On the one hand, eid echad gives me the halachic right to trust their word. One who chooses to trust and eat cannot be told off. (Again, barring Vaad Arbah Haaratzos issues.)
On the other hand, he said, if you have no idea what they (or their WIVES) know about kashrus, you have no idea WHAT their eidus is. It is true that you can trust their eidus, but you have no idea what they are testifying.
He added: once you are no longer talking about good friends, you also do not know if they qualify as eidim. In addition, if you do not know WHO the eid is (an anonymous baker with 'kol hamotzrim badatz'), he is also not an eid. It may be that your friend knows and trusts him (and there you can wonder on what basis he does so), and so you are relying on your friend and not on the baker, but if he is as gullible as I used to be, that doesn't help.
As an aside, our home gift-delivery business is required to use food sealed with a hashgacha. Rabbi Berkovits holds that selling food without some hechsher constitutes lifnei iver.
(I have a good time with this theme some Purims. One year the poem said, 'The ingredients used were originally Badatz, but they do not also certify our pots.' Another year, I commented that the eggs and the water were not certified by the Eida, and that left for long enough, the mishloach manos may gain additional ingredients that are not under hashgacha and may be moving.)

[avromie7]

Including all the above responses, I had a funny conversation with Rabbi Berkovits regarding trusting private people. This rehashes some of what @yfr bachur posted using different words and on a slightly different subject.
I came into marriage with an almost gullible trust in people I knew (not everyone, but those I knew). In contrast, my wife trusted nobody. (Really, she was paranoid about kashrus of others. When she was away from her hometown, she used to cold-call wives of Rabbanim to eat there for Shabbos, because she didn't know who else to trust.) So I went to consult with the Rav - who is right? You can be sure I brought up eid echad (they aren't selling me food, they sent a tray for the neighbor's sholom zochor...).
Rabbi Berkovits responded that we are both right. On the one hand, eid echad gives me the halachic right to trust their word. One who chooses to trust and eat cannot be told off. (Again, barring Vaad Arbah Haaratzos issues.)
On the other hand, he said, if you have no idea what they (or their WIVES) know about kashrus, you have no idea WHAT their eidus is. It is true that you can trust their eidus, but you have no idea what they are testifying.
He added: once you are no longer talking about good friends, you also do not know if they qualify as eidim. In addition, if you do not know WHO the eid is (an anonymous baker with 'kol hamotzrim badatz'), he is also not an eid. It may be that your friend knows and trusts him (and there you can wonder on what basis he does so), and so you are relying on your friend and not on the baker, but if he is as gullible as I used to be, that doesn't help.
As an aside, our home gift-delivery business is required to use food sealed with a hashgacha. Rabbi Berkovits holds that selling food without some hechsher constitutes lifnei iver.
(I have a good time with this theme some Purims. One year the poem said, 'The ingredients used were originally Badatz, but they do not also certify our pots.' Another year, I commented that the eggs and the water were not certified by the Eida, and that left for long enough, the mishloach manos may gain additional ingredients that are not under hashgacha and may be moving.)

What's the michshol?

[Moshe Green]

etc...

Any kashrus agency who advertises like this should not be trusted with even giving a hechsher on bottled water.

Disgusting how they portray KA's as money grubbing swindlers who either make the costumers lose out or stores not become kosher.

[yfr bachur]

What's the michshol?

Reading between the lines - he holds its asur to purchase food w/o a hechsher (in at least many cases)....

[avromie7]

Read between the lines - he holds its asur to purchase food w/o a hechsher (in at least many cases)....

Is he also saying anyone who holds it's muttar is wrong?

[yfr bachur]

Is he also saying anyone who holds it's muttar is wrong?

I'm not the talmid, i'll leave it for @mevinyavin to speak for him...
but it sure seems that he holds that in a case where there is not proper eidus (of eid echad) then it would be asur - and maybe just maybe someone who holds different might need to explain why.

[EliJelly]

Let's say they are of the position that any vegetarian restaurant is automatically kosher with no supervision.

Essentially saying they only consider chazir to be chazir treif but bugs and pests to be ok, more Halal than kosher actually.

[imayid2]

I'm going to assume that you're not trolling and deserve a good answer. So i'll give a few points based on the knowledge I have ammased over time, I do not work in hashgacha, I do not have smicha, and I'm sure that most of this must be common knowledge and there are much greater talmidie chachamim here too.

The Chazal, based on the torah do have a klal called Eid Echad Neeman Beisurin, the question is it's exact relevance here, and how.
Furthermore if we have this klal, why do we need hashgacha at all? Just believe the proprietor...

A. Takana of the Vaad Arbah Aratzos. while it is a shayla if and who today is obligated by these takanos, the VAA made a takana that we may NOT rely on EA when the EA is selling what he is giving eidus on - rather he must be "certified" by "eiza rav oh av beis din" (if i remember the lashon correctly). Many parts of klal yisroel have behaved as if they accepted the takanos for a nice amount of time (and an additional shayla is that even if they are not actually mechuyav by the original takanos, they may be mechuyav to continue the hanhaga bec of chazaka in hanhaga tova.)

B. What eidus is the Eid echad saying? Is he saying eidus at all?
So a guy w/ a kippa is selling cookies. He has a sign that says Kol motzrim badatz/only heimisher hechsheirim. Is that eidus that the cookies are kosher? that theres no lard in the cookies? that the keilim are kosher? that their not bb"c? That they're not maase shabbos? takroves avoda zara? that he took challa off from the baked cookies?

C. on what basis is he saying the eidus (this is an intrinsic part of eidus - i.e. HOW do you know?).
So one hechsher (if you ask them  ) says that "well, we had a talk with Gerolamo Silvestro and he gave us his word of honor that he'll only serve kosher products, and so therefore we certify him kosher (though we never explained to him what kosher means and we haven't been back bec he mails us his check every year)"
whereas another hechsher says "I personally inspect every package that is brought in to the store for a recognized acceptable larger hechsher and here's the list of such hechsherim and I am so devoted to the cause of kashrus in this store that I run my entire life around it and never leave (that's why the meeting is here  and I'm not married  ) and I know 1000% that no product enters w/o me knowing about it
Are they both the same EA neaman!?

I don’t like A but I love how you put down B and C

[avromie7]

I don’t like A but I love how you put down B and C

Does it say anywhere that an eid echad needs drishah v'chakirah?

[imayid2]

Does it say anywhere that an eid echad needs drishah v'chakirah?

Firstly, it does say regarding certain complex Kashrus inyanim you need to ensure the guy is qualified.
Secondly, it’s not drisha vchakira, it’s a simple matter of figuring out what he’s actually saying.

[avromie7]

Firstly, it does say regarding certain complex Kashrus inyanim you need to ensure the guy is qualified.
Secondly, it’s not drisha vchakira, it’s a simple matter of figuring out what he’s actually saying.

He's saying it's kosher.

[imayid2]

He's saying it's kosher.

Why does that mean? He shechted the cow? He saw a kosher symbol on the package? He considers Hebrew National to be Kosher enough?

Kosher is not a magic word.