Vaccine Discussion Master Thread

[Dan]

Lol. Because it was about natural recovery from orchitis.

Honest question: Have you ever done any of your own research about the safety and effectiveness of the vaccines that you are injecting your children with? Other than what your MD tells you and you can read in the conventional publications.

No, I leave difficult decisions that take years of training in the hands of experts who have went through that training, just like for most things in my life.

If thousands of non-government experts have researched something then I'm not one to assume there's some huge conspiracy/collusion going on here.

[jaywhy]

No, I leave difficult decisions that take years of training in the hands of experts who have went through that training, just like for most things in my life.

And you are comfortable leaving that decision in the hands of someone else?! Your doctor can give you his opinion and state his knowledge but at the end of the day, that decision is a deeply personal one that should only be made by the parents for their own child.

The next time you take your child to the doctor to get vaccinated, ask him one question. If CH'V something goes wrong, who is responsible and what can I do about it?
You may be shocked to hear that the answer is that you alone are responsible and there is nothing you can do about it.

The National Child Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 protects the vaccine manufacturer from liability for unavoidable adverse side effects.
http://www.nvic.org/injury-compensation/origihanlaw.aspx

The Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) also protects your doctor from any liability if a vaccine injures your baby.
http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html

Does the fact that there is no liability or accountability of anyone involved in vaccinating your child not set off any alarm bells in your head?!

May I suggest you do some of your own research?
Speak to people, do some searches. There are people on this forum who know children who have been injured by vaccines personally, and I'm sure if you started asking you can find many more.

If thousands of non-government experts have researched something then I'm not one to assume there's some huge conspiracy/collusion going on

Excuse me while I go put on my tinfoil hat but that indeed may be the case.

Merck, the maker of the MMR vaccine, has a history of faking test and safety data for the sake of profit. You only need to look at the Vioxx scandal to see that. Merck was exposed by the FDA as having concealed the fact that Vioxx was deadly for 5 years before it pulled it off the market. The FDA also admitted that its regulation had failed the public. Vioxx killed between 40,000 and 80,000 people in the US. The settlement cost Merck an estimated $3.5 billion dollars. Merck also has a long paper trail of litigation highlighting the company’s questionable ethics.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/787269

Avandia: Linked to over 1,800 deaths and $2.5 billion dollar settlement. Glaxo Smith Kline, the maker of Avandia was also accused of concealing harmful evidence for years before Avandia was pulled off the market.
http://www.ismp.org/QuarterWatch/2009Q4.pdf

Vaccine patents, unlike drug patents, do not expire, providing years and years of unending profits and the manufacturers are protected from litigation by the federal government. There is no possibility of a lawsuit or a settlement. They wouldn't be on the hook for one cent.

Merck was even sued for having lied and falsified data on the effectiveness of the MMR vaccines by two of their own scientists who used to work for them and were in charge of the testing program.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20120622-710001.html

Case in point. The pharmacuetical companies have falsified, lied, and killed tens of thousands of people before. The incentive for them to lie and falsify data for vaccines is even more compelling.

Just do your own research and don't put the responsibility for the health of your precious children in the hands of someone else, especially when that someone has no accountability for any adverse effects.

[Harris]

jaywhy, well said sir.

[pghtown]

"Speak to people, do some searches. "
That is not RESEARCH!! Speaking to one person does not constitute research.  I would rather believe the scientists who are intelligent and spend their lives trying to improve people's lives than anecdotes and rumors.  This is a silly discussion with people who are generally uninformed about this important issue.   Yes there may be a small risk of vaccinations, but those risks pale in comparison to the risk of the disease that they definitely prevent.  You unvaccinated ones are not getting sick because you rely on others to be immune and not pass it on to you. Some would claim that the unvaccinated ones are just SELFISH, relying on others to take the small risk yet reaping all the rewards.

[YankyDoodle]

The question I hope we can all address civilly is whether getting the MMR vaccine really helps to prevent the disease and if it does, whether the complications that can result from getting the vaccine should preclude one from getting it.

Well prior to the Measles vaccine there were ~2.6 Million deaths per year worldwide! Now (after the vaccine) it's under 200k. www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

Sometimes people feel the need to blame someone when something tragic happens. Don't make something that is straightforward more complicated than it needs to be. These vaccines are literally life-savers. Do they have side-effects? Absolutely. But they are nothing compared to the good they do. If you want to do something positive, develop a vaccine with fewer side-effects! Or publish authentic research showing that the vaccines do more harm than good.

You're living in the glass house created by vaccines, be careful where you throw your stones.

[jaywhy]

"Speak to people, do some searches. "
That is not RESEARCH!! Speaking to one person does not constitute research.  I would rather believe the scientists who are intelligent and spend their lives trying to improve people's lives than anecdotes and rumors.  This is a silly discussion with people who are generally uninformed about this important issue.   Yes there may be a small risk of vaccinations, but those risks pale in comparison to the risk of the disease that they definitely prevent.  You unvaccinated ones are not getting sick because you rely on others to be immune and not pass it on to you. Some would claim that the unvaccinated ones are just SELFISH, relying on others to take the small risk yet reaping all the rewards.

Who said anything about speaking to one person?
Speaking to other parents and to people whose lives were hugely impacted by vaccines certainly is doing your own research. I'm not saying to disregard everything your doctor tells you, just do your own research and take everything your doctor tells you about vaccines with a big, fat, glistening grain of salt.
If you would rather believe scientists whose research is sponsored by the vaccine manufacturers, and who have no accountability for anything going wrong, go right ahead.

The problem with herd immunity is that it is a natural effect that science tries to mimic, unsuccessfully. Hence the need for booster shots and all of that.
In the mumps outbreaks mentioned earlier in this thread, the only people who were truly immune from mumps were the people who had contracted the disease naturally. The disease affected both vaccinated and unvaccinated people almost indiscriminately.

Please try to keep this discussion civil.

[Menachem613]

Like most decisions in life, you need to weigh the risks of a vaccine against the risk of getting the disease.

[Menachem613]

We both agree that they are not.
Here is a query from the government administrated Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System showing how over 1000 people died as a result of the various flu vaccines administered each year. This is only the people or doctors who went through the laborious process of reporting an adverse event and does not count the many which are not reported.
This query shows over 11,000 cases of serious side effects as a direct result of the aforementioned flu vaccine.

Isn't the National Vaccine Information Center an anti-vaccination advocacy group?

Also, how did the NVIC determine the cause of death? 

As an aside, I don't think even the NVIC is claiming that over 1,000 people die annually from the flu vaccine.

[churnbabychurn]

Like most decisions in life, you need to weigh the risks of a vaccine against the risk of getting the disease.

like all issues in life one should ask a competent halachic authority.
I thing I posted up thread: The consensus of the poskim is that we do not have to be choshes at all for the miut damage and we are absolutely obligated to listen to the vast majority of doctors who say that this saves lives.

[pghtown]

Who said anything about speaking to one person?
Speaking to other parents and to people whose lives were hugely impacted by vaccines certainly is doing your own research. I'm not saying to disregard everything your doctor tells you, just do your own research and take everything your doctor tells you about vaccines with a big, fat, glistening grain of salt.
If you would rather believe scientists whose research is sponsored by the vaccine manufacturers, and who have no accountability for anything going wrong, go right ahead.

The problem with herd immunity is that it is a natural effect that science tries to mimic, unsuccessfully. Hence the need for booster shots and all of that.
In the mumps outbreaks mentioned earlier in this thread, the only people who were truly immune from mumps were the people who had contracted the disease naturally. The disease affected both vaccinated and unvaccinated people almost indiscriminately.

Please try to keep this discussion civil.

And how many "people whose lives were hugely impacted by vaccines" do you actually KNOW??    While undoubtedly some scientists may be biased, the vast majority of them are not under the influence of the vaccine makers.  Many experts on the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practice are independent of the manufacturers.  Sadly you are misinformed.  Vaccines are truly one of the greatest medical breakthroughs ever.  They have saved millions of lives.  Oh well, I'll protect you and your family by getting vaccinated.  But if you get the flu, don't take any medicine because any study that shows that medicines help with certain infections was undoubtedly sponsored by a manufacturer.

[churnbabychurn]

Parents of children with autism seek someone to blame. That's what this is all about.

[pghtown]

OK- let's ramp up this lively discussion a bit with another question-  How many parents have vaccinated their teenage children with the HPV Vaccine (Gardisil)?

[jaywhy]

Well prior to the Measles vaccine there were ~2.6 Million deaths per year worldwide! Now (after the vaccine) it's under 200k. www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

Sometimes people feel the need to blame someone when something tragic happens. Don't make something that is straightforward more complicated than it needs to be. These vaccines are literally life-savers. Do they have side-effects? Absolutely. But they are nothing compared to the good they do. If you want to do something positive, develop a vaccine with fewer side-effects! Or publish authentic research showing that the vaccines do more harm than good.

You're living in the glass house created by vaccines, be careful where you throw your stones.

That is debatable. There is a strong argument to be made that improved sanitation and medical care reduced the fatality rate and incidence of measles as much or more than the vaccine.

Vaccines are very, very far from being straightforward. They may indeed save lives. But they also may kill and maim many people in the process.

There are 2 sides to every story and pros and cons to everything. The mudslinging and attacks that have been going on in this thread are uncalled for and don't promote anything positive. If one is so confident in either side, there is no need for mudslinging and attacks. Just make your case and leave it at that. Attacks are usually a product of insecurity and ignorance.

I'm trying to do something positive by showing that vaccines are not an open shut case. Every parent needs to do their own research, weigh those pros and cons, and then make their own decision whether or not to vaccinate their child.

[jaywhy]

Isn't the National Vaccine Information Center an anti-vaccination advocacy group?

Also, how did the NVIC determine the cause of death? 

As an aside, I don't think even the NVIC is claiming that over 1,000 people die annually from the flu vaccine.

They are pulling the data directly from VAERS. You can crosscheck the VAERS ID for each report if you wish.
I can see how my statement can be misleading. I meant that over 1,000 people have been killed by the various flu vaccines that are given out and changed on an annual basis.

[jaywhy]

Parents of children with autism seek someone to blame. That's what this is all about.

That is a really mean thing to say. I hope to God you don't regret that one day.

[jaywhy]

OK- let's ramp up this lively discussion a bit with another question-  How many parents have vaccinated their teenage children with the HPV Vaccine (Gardisil)?

If you have any faith in vaccines, you really don't want to go down that road.
Gardasil has one of the highest risk to benefit ratios of any vaccine on the market

[pghtown]

If you have any faith in vaccines, you really don't want to go down that road.
Gardasil has one of the highest risk to benefit ratios of any vaccine on the market

That statement is absolutely false.  It has dramatically reduced cervical cancer which is a major killer of women worldwide.

[pghtown]

While an informed consumer is always best.  Just like I defer to Dan our expert on frequent flier issues, I defer to the scientists and physicians who have the expertise and knowledge to provide an informed opinion based on scientific evidence.

[jaywhy]

That statement is absolutely false.  It has dramatically reduced cervical cancer which is a major killer of women worldwide.

Please post references before making outrageous statements.

Just wrong.
#1. It supposedly prevents the HPV virus, which can lead to cervical cancer if it doesn't heal by itself.
From cancer.gov,

Most infections with high-risk HPVs do not cause cancer. Many HPV infections go away on their own within 1 to 2 years. However, infections that last for many years increase a person’s risk of developing cancer.

Furthermore, both HPV vaccines are only effective against 2 strains of cancer causing HPV. HPV is a family of over 150 viruses, 40 of which can cause cancer . If there was any exposure to HPV before vaccination, the vaccine is useless.

HPV can also easily be detected by a simple pap smear. Being that HPV lingers for 10-20 years before causing serious lesions that in only 50% of cases lead to cervical cancer, a routine pap smear during that timeframe will easily detect the virus.

In clinical trials, 361 of 8,817 women who received at least one shot of Gardasil went on to develop precancerous lesions on their cervixes within three years of vaccination, just 14% fewer than in a placebo control group.

Hardly a slam dunk.
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/HPV
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB117668541991270825

#2. Here is a search of VAERS showing over 1,100 cases of serious side effects or death from HPV vaccines. Japan has withdrawn its recommendation for HPV vaccination programs after thousands of cases of serious side effects were reported.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/806645
Merck has only tested the vaccine in several hundred young girls aged 11- and 12-years, yet the company lobbied dozens of states to make the vaccine mandatory for 11- and 12-year-old girls even if they are not sexually active.
Listen to what Dr. Diane Harper, one of the lead researchers for the Merck drug who helped design and carry out the Phase II and Phase III safety and effectiveness studies to get Gardasil approved, and authored many of the published, scholarly papers about it had to say about that.

If we vaccinate 11 year olds and the protection doesn't last... we've put them at harm from side effects, small but real, for no benefit," says Dr. Harper. "The benefit to public health is nothing, there is no reduction in cervical cancers, they are just postponed. Enough serious side effects have been reported after Gardasil use that the vaccine could prove riskier than the cervical cancer it purports to prevent. Cervical cancer is usually entirely curable when detected early through normal Pap screenings.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500690_162-5253431.html

If you feel comfortable giving that to an 11 year old, that's your decision. Just make sure you weigh the pros and cons carefully before injecting your child with a vaccine that can kill or seriously maim them for life with little or no benefit.

[Barryg]

like all issues in life one should ask a competent halachic authority.
I thing I posted up thread: The consensus of the poskim is that we do not have to be choshes at all for the miut damage and we are absolutely obligated to listen to the vast majority of doctors who say that this saves lives.

Probably depends how you ask the question...
The halachic answer that I got (for me) from a posek, was that: Since vast majority of doctors say it saves lives, you can't just go against them. However, if you research by speaking to ppl with knowledge in the field (doctors etc) then proper hishtadlus is to go with what makes the most sense...