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I hear both sides. While I am fairly certain that this will ultimately have a negative effect on the kids that were there, I understand that this protest was never intended to be for their benefit but rather to protest against public chilul shabbos. Is that a fair trade-off?

I did speak with a rabbi who I consider to be one of the world's foremost experts on helping OTD kids (and I have personal experience with way too many of them), and he was vehemently against it. He felt that a protest like this will cause significantly more kids to go off, as it now created an us-vs-them mentality that until now only simmered below the surface but is now being forced on them.

12 years ago I was ordered to leave Lakewood because of a (in hindsight) very trivial incident. Do you know what that type of ostracization does to an angry teenager? It makes them angrier and more eager to do the things that caused them to be ostracized in the first place. Some of these kids may have been only testing the waters, hanging out with friends who are much more brazen than them right now. Now they feel like they there's no return. Some of these kids have friends that they will now convince to join them who otherwise were only being mechalel shabbos behind closed doors. There are plenty of kids who are currently in yeshiva and looking the part, but also engaging in all forms of illicit activities including drugs and chilul shabbos. Many of these kids will now feel emboldened to join a "community" of like minded kids. Etc etc etc.

Chop off the limb to save the body, I get that concept even if I don't agree with it. But what about anything connected to that limb? This has consequences reaching far beyond the kids that were physically being mechalel shabbos at the  lake, and I don't think anyone thought about this beyond how it would affect the protesters and the protestees.

My 2 cents.

Lakewood shabbos DO (singing kah echsof in the park, while smoking electric cigarettes using a shabbos switch

Confirmed:
Grodnoking (Need a shabbos switch for my Ecig, who can bring one?)

Probable:

Impossible:
henche


תניא פרק ל"ב

ומ"ש בגמ' שמי שרואה בחבירו שחטא מצוה לשנאותו וגם לומר לרבו שישנאהו. היינו בחבירו בתורה ומצות וכבר קיים בו מצות הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך עם שאתך בתורה ובמצות ואעפ"כ לא שב מחטאו כמ"ש בס' חרדים

 אבל מי שאינו חבירו ואינו מקורב אצלו הנה ע"ז אמר הלל הזקן הוי מתלמידיו של אהרן אוהב שלום וכו' אוהב את הבריות ומקרבן לתורה. לומר שאף הרחוקים מתורת ה' ועבודתו ולכן נקראי' בשם בריות בעלמא צריך למשכן בחבלי עבותו' אהבה וכולי האי ואולי יוכל לקרבן לתורה ועבודת ה' והן לא לא הפסיד שכר מצות אהבת ריעים

וגם המקורבים אליו והוכיחם ולא שבו מעונותיהם שמצוה לשנאותם מצוה לאהבם ג"כ ושתיהן הן אמת שנאה מצד הרע שבהם ואהבה מצד בחי' הטוב הגנוז שבהם שהוא ניצוץ אלקות שבתוכם המחיה נפשם האלקית וגם לעורר רחמים בלבו עליה כי היא בבחי' גלות בתוך הרע מס"א הגובר עליה ברשעי' והרחמנות מבטלת השנאה ומעוררת האהבה כנודע ממ"ש ליעקב אשר פדה את אברהם [ולא אמר דה"עה תכלית שנאה שנאתים וגו' אלא על המינים והאפיקורסים שאין להם חלק באלהי ישראל כדאיתא בגמרא ר"פ ט"ז דשבת]:

« Last edited by yesitsme on May 21, 2015, 12:17:47 PM »

Author Topic: Lakewood Shabbos rally  (Read 178167 times)

Offline yitrap

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #100 on: May 17, 2015, 07:55:14 PM »

Offline sky121

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #101 on: May 17, 2015, 07:55:52 PM »
As of now the cops showed up the past 2 weeks
They even asked the cops to kick the kids out and the cops obviously said they did nothing wrong
Weren't the kids smoking?
How old are these kids exactly?
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #102 on: May 17, 2015, 07:56:04 PM »
You both beat me to it.
Now we all wait with bated breath for a brilliant reply
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline asd

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #103 on: May 17, 2015, 07:56:13 PM »
He tried using the analogy of using love and patience like we do by baalei tshuva

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #104 on: May 17, 2015, 07:57:21 PM »
Weren't the kids smoking?
How old are these kids exactly?
The cops aren't interested in arresting a bunch of little kids for smoking cigarettes
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline yitrap

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #105 on: May 17, 2015, 07:57:35 PM »

Weren't the kids smoking?
How old are these kids exactly?
Cops generally won't make an issue with that. Technically it's not illegal to have or smoke the cigarettes, it's illegal to sell or give to a minor...

Offline whacked1

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #106 on: May 17, 2015, 07:57:37 PM »
Is there any "hangout" areas for these kids? I know of a bunch in brooklyn, dont know anything about lakewood. Is the point really just to get them to move to a different location?

I hope people are thinking whats if its their child? Would they want the same thing? Every child on the streets has parents/siblings/relatives that are crying for them, hopefully we didnt arrive at banishment as our solution!!

Offline elit

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #107 on: May 17, 2015, 07:57:40 PM »
He tried using the analogy of using love and patience like we do by baalei tshuva
Keep going... still not understanding

Offline yitrap

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #108 on: May 17, 2015, 07:58:04 PM »

He tried using the analogy of using love and patience like we do by baalei tshuva
Who's he?

Offline yitrap

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #109 on: May 17, 2015, 08:00:00 PM »

He tried using the analogy of using love and patience like we do by baalei tshuva
Do you really think that it's other kids who are otd that are the reason more kids go off?? Most kids will tell you otherwise.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #110 on: May 17, 2015, 08:00:15 PM »
Is there any "hangout" areas for these kids? I know of a bunch in brooklyn, dont know anything about lakewood. Is the point really just to get them to move to a different location?

I hope people are thinking whats if its their child? Would they want the same thing? Every child on the streets has parents/siblings/relatives that are crying for them, hopefully we didnt arrive at banishment as our solution!!
I was not there but I know a guy who went there and when he asked what would you do if it was your kid the response was my kids wouldn't do that
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline yitrap

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #111 on: May 17, 2015, 08:01:11 PM »

I was not there but I know a guy who went there and when he asked what would you do if it was your kid the response was my kids wouldn't do that
That's the nebach of this whole story.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #112 on: May 17, 2015, 08:02:47 PM »
That's the nebach of this whole story.
I wonder if that was @asd
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline whacked1

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #113 on: May 17, 2015, 08:03:20 PM »
He tried using the analogy of using love and patience like we do by baalei tshuva
I love how your definition of a baal tshuva is only someone that was never frum!!! 

Offline yitrap

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #114 on: May 17, 2015, 08:04:46 PM »

I love how your definition of a baal tshuva is only someone that was never frum!!!
+10000000000000

Offline elit

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #115 on: May 17, 2015, 08:11:02 PM »
I was not there but I know a guy who went there and when he asked what would you do if it was your kid the response was my kids wouldn't do that
Im really not sure who.s more otd? Anyone want to come with me to sing zemiros by the shul or BM they hang out by?

Offline Sport

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #116 on: May 17, 2015, 08:23:05 PM »
Honestly, I dont get this whole thing about "imagine it was your kid" wth does that matter? Fine, you dont think your kid will ever go otd, ( which i can garuntee a guy like thats kids are way more likely to) but wth cares, No ones asking them to treat this kids like their own ( which would probably be disastrous if they did). Just treat them like normal people not some virus infected dog.

Offline Achas Veachas

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #117 on: May 17, 2015, 08:27:02 PM »
Honestly, I dont get this whole thing about "imagine it was your kid" wth does that matter? Fine, you dont think your kid will ever go otd, ( which i can garuntee a guy like thats kids are way more likely to) but wth cares, No ones asking them to treat this kids like their own ( which would probably be disastrous if they did). Just treat them like normal people not some virus infected dog.
Sometimes the only way to drive home that point is by reminding people that these are not "some virus infected dog" rather they are good kids, they can even be yours...

Offline rileywiles23

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #118 on: May 17, 2015, 08:27:56 PM »

That's not the definition of chillul hashem.
I don't know how you define C"H, but IMHO anytime a yid does not act the way g-d intended, and causes others - even Jews - to look at klal Yisroel in a bad light, that is a chillul hashem !!!
Life is as good as you make it...

Offline cf

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Re: Lakewood Shabbos rally
« Reply #119 on: May 17, 2015, 08:30:37 PM »
This is the old fashioned quick fix mentality....  What exactly will they gain if they do succeed in getting them out? No one will see them=otd is history?