The Tamar Epstein Saga

[henche]

perhaps its time to close up this thread
i dont think a single productive thing comes out of it
i think many unproductive and damaging things come out of it

Well, it keeps me from reading the "daas torah" blog.

[aygart]

Assume you are correct that he has a personality disorder - is that the threshold that Rav Moshe set? Have you lost your mind?

Your questioning whether or not he meets the full level of illness described by R Moshe is definitely a valid question and is central to the letters against the heter. That does not translate into them being a lie.

[SayWhat]

How is it not a lie?

[Aaaron]

Aygart -
The husband in Rebbe Moshes tesuva where Rebbe Moshe annulled the marriage  (which this case is supposedly based off of) was in a mental institution, walked around without clothes on and had tried to kill himself. Even if he gave a get it probably wouldn't have been good because of his mental illness.

The current husband, Aharon Friedman for the past bunch of years  (not sure exactly but I think more than 5) has worked as the tax counsel for the House Ways and Means committee. In other words his boss until last month was Congressman Paul Ryan who is now the speaker of the house. His job entails dealing with other high ranking members of Congress, lobbyists and CEO's of fortune 100 companies. Do you think that someone who has had this job for year's is mentally ill like the husband in Rav Moshes tesuva?

If you read the letter from the Baltimore Bais Din it clearly states that when asked why she wants a divorce Tamar said that her husband wasn't social enough for her. Don't you think that if her husband was suffering from an incurable mental illness she might have mentioned that to the Bais Din as to way she wanted a Get?

The expert psychologist who said that the husband is mentally ill never met or examined the husband and only based the report off of what Tamar said about him.

Aygart - i have made 3 points to explain why i think that the husband is not mentally ill - your thoughts.

A.  You're assuming this case has to be an exact corollary from R' Moshe's case.  That's your first mistake.  R' Moshe's heter moved the goal posts, there's no reason contemporary halachic authority can't do the same.  Granted, the new standard from whoever granted this heter hasn't reached acceptance in the velt so it probably won't be binding.

B.  Being able to hold down a job - even the type of demanding job he has/had - is not indicative that there's no mental disorder that would make a marriage unbearable.  It's certainly not a proof as you try to spin it.

C.  Maybe she was told not to tell the BBD about the mental illness for fear that they would say he's not able to grant a valid get?  See, I could speculate with the best of em in this thread.

Assume you are correct that he has a personality disorder - is that the threshold that Rav Moshe set? Have you lost your mind?

Again, the goal posts move every generation.

[SayWhat]

That's your opinion - but the tens of Rabonim and Poskim very vehemently disagree with you.

If you want to keep moving the goal posts just join Open Orthodoxy - don't corrupt our religion

[aygart]

C.  Maybe she was told not to tell the BBD about the mental illness for fear that they would say he's not able to grant a valid get?

That would be disturbing in its own right since if he was unable to give a valid get but did so anyhow that would also mean that she was getting married while still an eishes ish.

[Aaaron]

That's your opinion - but the tens of Rabonim and Poskim very vehemently disagree with you.

If you want to keep moving the goal posts just join Open Orthodoxy - don't corrupt our religion

Says the guy with a vested interest in this not being a valid heter...

ETA:  You'd probably have said the same to RMF, but keep burying your head in the sand. 

[SayWhat]

Aaaron it is not my assumption that the case has to be similar to Rav Moshe - Rabbi Greenblatt himself wrote that

"if it is possible to nullify the kiddushin due to this. And I said that if the matter is clear and is similar to the incident in the responsum in the Igros Moshe, it is possible to permit it under certain circumstances."

You don't know what your talking about

[Aaaron]

Aaaron it is not my assumption that the case has to be similar to Rav Moshe - Rabbi Greenblatt himself wrote that

"if it is possible to nullify the kiddushin due to this. And I said that if the matter is clear and is similar to the incident in the responsum in the Igros Moshe, it is possible to permit it under certain circumstances."

You don't know what your talking about

SIMILAR.  Not the same.  You see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear.

[SayWhat]

SIMILAR.  Not the same.  You see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear.

The guy was in a freaking mental institution

[Aaaron]

The guy was in a freaking mental institution

He had a mental illness.  TE is claiming that AF has a mental illness/PD.  That's a similarity.  The guy from the teshuva made the marriage impracticable.  TE is claiming AF's disorders did as well.  Those are similarities.  Now, you want to claim his disorders - if they exist - weren't severe enough to warrant this because you somehow have intimate knowledge of their marriage.  Most of us agree that we just don't know.

[elit]

This is the very definition of במקום שיש חילול השם אין חולקים כבוד לרב

So your the guy who throws rocks at gedolim in israel. Nice.

[SayWhat]

He had a mental illness.  TE is claiming that AF has a mental illness/PD.  That's a similarity.  The guy from the teshuva made the marriage impracticable.  TE is claiming AF's disorders did as well.  Those are similarities.  Now, you want to claim his disorders - if they exist - weren't severe enough to warrant this because you somehow have intimate knowledge of their marriage.  Most of us agree that we just don't know.

So why are all the Rabonim making such a fuss while not a single Rabbi has come to its defense not YU not RCA?  Why is it that none of them see it as you?

[SayWhat]

He had a mental illness.  TE is claiming that AF has a mental illness/PD.  That's a similarity.  The guy from the teshuva made the marriage impracticable.  TE is claiming AF's disorders did as well.  Those are similarities.  Now, you want to claim his disorders - if they exist - weren't severe enough to warrant this because you somehow have intimate knowledge of their marriage.  Most of us agree that we just don't know.

You talk about seeing what I wanna see - how about the psychologist report written by someone who did not even examine AF?

[churnbabychurn]

Also @aygart has never answered why "Meshuga bemolo muvan hamila" - "Totally Insane" is not a lie.

Everyone knows that this guy is not "totally insane" but RNG based his heter on the report that he is indeed totally insane.

[churnbabychurn]

And personality issues are a shiduch concern. Not a reason to mafkia kiddushin.

[aygart]

Also @aygart has never answered why "Meshuga bemolo muvan hamila" - "Totally Insane" is not a lie.

Everyone knows that this guy is not "totally insane" but RNG based his heter on the report that he is indeed totally insane.

How many times do you want to repeat the same things which were already discussed and answered?

[Aaaron]

So why are all the Rabonim making such a fuss while not a single Rabbi has come to its defense not YU not RCA?  Why is it that none of them see it as you?

YU types did two years ago (the ORA guys) when the heter came out.  Give it another few weeks, I'm sure we'll be hearing something one way or the other.

You talk about seeing what I wanna see - how about the psychologist report written by someone who did not even examine AF?

I don't think that's determinative either.  First, there were some reports that alleged that there were some psychologists who saw both of them.  Second, there are plenty of shitos that mekach/mimcar ta'us applies when the purchaser didn't get what he thought he was getting, regardless of severity of the defect.  I just don't think the whole situation is as cut and dry as you do.  There are many unanswered questions.

[Baruch]

A.  You're assuming this case has to be an exact corollary from R' Moshe's case.  That's your first mistake.  R' Moshe's heter moved the goal posts, there's no reason contemporary halachic authority can't do the same.  Granted, the new standard from whoever granted this heter hasn't reached acceptance in the velt so it probably won't be binding.

B.  Being able to hold down a job - even the type of demanding job he has/had - is not indicative that there's no mental disorder that would make a marriage unbearable.  It's certainly not a proof as you try to spin it.

C.  Maybe she was told not to tell the BBD about the mental illness for fear that they would say he's not able to grant a valid get?  See, I could speculate with the best of em in this thread.


Again, the goal posts move every generation.

Rav Moshe didn't move goal posts.
He would vomit at the way you describe Halacha.

Kidushei Taus is not the NFL's extra point.

[Aaaron]

Rav Moshe didn't move goal posts.
He would vomit at the way you describe Halacha.

Kidushei Taus is not the NFL's extra point.

Ooooh, because I compared it to a sport I must be wrong.  Find me an earlier published case of kidushei ta'us based on a mental defect.