The Tamar Epstein Saga

[Baruch]

No.

Oy oy oy! Thank God, that in the Boston Ezras Nashims, there are Shalom Task Force flyers. 

[Baruch]

I assume your 65 year old talmid chacham muflag was being sarcastic?

He actually was being dead serious.

[avromie7]

You don't think someone who threatens his fiancee with his fist is a meshugena?

Now for that to be kedushei ta'us is another story.

My point was, that if Rav Moshe's homosexual, had taavas nashim for his wife, (I didn't see the teshuva, and it may be that he didn't, which would be a simple mekach ta'us), then unfortunately a homosexual is not that crazy....

It's not just any homosexual it's a man who was a practicing homosexual

[Baruch]

It's not just any homosexual it's a man who was a practicing homosexual

I'm not sure I understand. He was openly living with another man?

[avromie7]

I'm not sure I understand. He was openly living with another man?

I didn't either see the teshuva but it seems he was living with him, though it may not have been public knowledge.

[churnbabychurn]

I'm not sure I understand. He was openly living with another man?

In this case BTW the kidushin was done by a conservative rabbi (which is nothing) he used the hafkah as an extra snif.


"ששום אשה לא היתה מתרצית להנשא
 לאדם מנוול ומאוס ובזוי כזה"

Are you honestly comparing this to a guy that allegedly threatened a fiance once? Unbelievable.

[churnbabychurn]

You don't think someone who threatens his fiancee with his fist is a meshugena?

Now for that to be kedushei ta'us is another story.

My point was, that if Rav Moshe's homosexual, had taavas nashim for his wife, (I didn't see the teshuva, and it may be that he didn't, which would be a simple mekach ta'us), then unfortunately a homosexual is not that crazy....

You are confused. Noone claimed that the homosexual was insane, R Moshe's sevara was menuval umeshukatz. Not insane.

[SayWhat]

This gets more interesting http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/12/tamar-epsteins-heter-news-flash.html?m=1

Say what you want about how R Eidensohn presents his information but he has been 100% correct in everything that he has reported until now.

The foundation that the Heter is based upon is crumbling.

[henche]

This gets more interesting http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/12/tamar-epsteins-heter-news-flash.html?m=1

Say what you want about how R Eidensohn presents his information but he has been 100% correct in everything that he has reported until now.

The foundation that the Heter is based upon is crumbling.

He said, she said.

If the therapists did in fact breach confidentiality, you expect they'd say so when Mr. Daas Torah calls?

[SayWhat]

He said, she said.

If the therapists did in fact breach confidentiality, you expect they'd say so when Mr. Daas Torah calls?

Don't you think that that creates a credibility issue if we need to rely on information from some one who can't confirm that he provided it? (It is highly unlikely that a therapist would share a clients confidential information and risk losing his license to begin with)

[AJK]

Yeah, it's far more likely R' Kamenetsky simply fabricated the entire thing, risking considerably more than just a "professional license," right?

[Baruch]

In this case BTW the kidushin was done by a conservative rabbi (which is nothing) he used the hafkah as an extra snif.


"ששום אשה לא היתה מתרצית להנשא
 לאדם מנוול ומאוס ובזוי כזה"

Are you honestly comparing this to a guy that allegedly threatened a fiance once? Unbelievable.

Now that you bring the לשון of Rav Moshe that the yesod was "אדם מנוול ומאוס ובזוי כזה", I totally agree.
I thought Rav Moshe was considering him a meshugena. Unfortunately it's much more common to find a guy that was over mishkav zachar, than finding someone who threatened a fiancee with a fist.

But in the context of who would a person marry, I agree it's uncomparable.
(Although, it would be pretty hard to find anyone to marry someone who threatened his fiancee with his fist)

I understood Rav Moshe was considering a homosexual a meshugena.

[Baruch]

You are confused. Noone claimed that the homosexual was insane, R Moshe's sevara was menuval umeshukatz. Not insane.

I agree with you. Thanks for sharing the lashon of Rav Moshe.

[churnbabychurn]

I agree with you. Thanks for sharing the lashon of Rav Moshe.

Meshugana in the context you used to describe a guy who threatens his finance is not the insanity that is required to be mafkia kiddushin.

There is a difference between a social/weirdo/meshugena - all of which are personality issues and insanity.

So just because we use the term meshugena in normal conversation, as in the conversation with the talmid chacham that you spoke with, it does not  mean insane in this context.

In R Sholoms case it was meant to mean Insane

[yuneeq]

Meshugana in the context you used to describe a guy who threatens his finance is not the insanity that is required to be mafkia kiddushin.

There is a difference between a social/weirdo/meshugena - all of which are personality issues and insanity.

So just because we use the term meshugena in normal conversation, as in the conversation with the talmid chacham that you spoke with, it does not  mean insane in this context.

In R Sholoms case it was meant to mean Insane

Similar to how when someone murders, everyone calls the murderer a crazy nut job, but when it comes to the justice system, we treat him like a regular person unless he is truly clinically insane.

[churnbabychurn]

Lots of gam ani mitztaref lehanalz here.

[Ergel]

Indeed. Odd that they pin this on Rav Shmuel

[a mirrer]

Indeed. Odd that they pin this on Rav Shmuel

obviously there was more involvement then what was claimed by some

[SayWhat]

Indeed. Odd that they pin this on Rav Shmuel

Rav Shmuel had written several letters that Friedman was mechyuv according to halacha to give a Get and supported the public demonstrations by ORA against Friedman. There is a YouTube video from one of the demonstrations where a participant says that they are there (publicly shaming Friedman) because of Rav Shmuel.

The issue with this is that the Baltimore Bais Din had said that Friedman is not mechyuv to give a Get.

Rav Shmuel also signed onto a Seruv against Friedman along with Wolmark and Ralbag (given immunity from the Feds in the Mendel Epstein trial in order to testify) even though their Bais Din (which will now be relocated to Ottisville) had no jurisdiction. The arrangements of that Seruv became part of the evidence at the Mendel Epstein trial because Tamar Epstein's lawyer Frederick Goldfein testified after receiving immunity from the Feds how the Seruv with Wolmark  (which Rav Shmuel signed onto as well) was really a back room deal as opposed to any sort of halachic process.

So on the one side you have a Bais Din that both parties signed a Shtar Birurin with and heard from both sides saying one thing and than u have Daas Torah (who only heard one side) saying the opposite and supporting a public shaming campaign.

So it's not really odd that Rav Shmuel is getting blamed. He has been "involved" in this case long before the Heter was fabricated.

[Baruch]

Who is Rav Knopfler?, and were Rav Chaim and Rav Nissim "gam ani mitztarfim" to his addition, or to the Baltimore Bais Din psak? I can't read the original, it's unclear