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הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 276530 times)

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #580 on: December 02, 2015, 11:27:32 AM »
And by saying she didn't get what she bargained for is "simplifying and codifying" the process of voiding her marriage.  Again, mekach/mimcar ta'os isn't a new concept either, not even in the framework of annulling a marriage.  I'm not sure why Yuneeq is claiming it is. 

So, how is it different than pruzbal or the methods used to avoid pi shnayim in an inheritance? 
I will not go into a discussion about the specifics of this case and whether mekach taos applies here. If there was a heter finalized then those who issued it clearly felt it does. Many apparently disagree. I do not have enough information on the case in addition to this.

Kol she'eino yodiea bitiv gitin vikidushin lo yehay lo esek imahem. This means me.
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #581 on: December 02, 2015, 11:32:30 AM »
You are being ridiculous. Someone who has an extreme case of certain personality disorders may be able to hold a job etc but when the disorder comes into play be meshuga b'mlo hamila (which does not mean crazy in every sense). This post of yours illustrates how you have decided an result before seeing the entire picture.
Meshuga bemolo muvan hamilah means exactly that.  Totally crazy.
As a fluent ivrit and english speaker, trust me.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #582 on: December 02, 2015, 12:17:38 PM »
Meshuga bemolo muvan hamilah means exactly that.  Totally crazy.
As a fluent ivrit and english speaker, trust me.
You can never ignore the context. Anyone who reads the letter will see that this was not his intended meaning. As I said, you are being ridiculous. Besides, the letter was not written by an Israeli.
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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #583 on: December 02, 2015, 01:39:17 PM »
Meshuga bemolo muvan hamilah means exactly that.  Totally crazy.
As a fluent ivrit and english speaker, trust me.
You can never ignore the context. Anyone who reads the letter will see that this was not his intended meaning. As I said, you are being ridiculous. Besides, the letter was not written by an Israeli.

I really was not going to comment on this thread, but ...


where's Mesh when we need him!
^^^

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #584 on: December 02, 2015, 01:48:19 PM »
As I said, you are being ridiculous.
Bad point

Besides, the letter was not written by an Israeli
Good point

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #585 on: December 02, 2015, 02:15:23 PM »
Bad point
Good point
I actually feel that the context is more of an answer than his nationality. If he writes 2 pages discussing why a personality disorder is enough even though he is not a full fledged shotah how can you understand him to be meaning that he is a full fledged shotah. Get real!
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Offline shiframeir

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #586 on: December 02, 2015, 02:22:38 PM »
Boo. I'm supposed to respond to a megila of non orthodox thought?
Not happening. As you mentioned, this is a predominantly orthodox forum.
But il summarise my response in one sentence.
If being frum is too difficult and embarrassing for you, you're sadly SOL.
There is nothing anyone can do to help you. Even the rabbis.
I respect Aygart's response, though i disagree, at least he provided some substantive comment which i will respond to if i have the time. If you refuse to respond to questions and just want to live in a box, that's fine, but that's not the jewish way. we have to be able to respond in a way that makes sense (dah mah lehashiv) both for our own sake (so we dont later question ourselves and defensiveness without real answer) and for our kids sake (day lechakima on this) and makes our religion look good.
our religion does not have hold fast rules (per rambam, and elaborated by achronim from R Yosef Cairo and then R Elchonon Wasserman in Kovetz he'aros as to the binding nature of shas (due to consensus, and the potential to change all the rabbinic rulings based on opposite consensus)) other than what is in ksav (including simple basic interp), passed down via mesorah to moshe (including certain drashos) or halacha lmoshe misinai.
as to whether we should be embarassed, there is so much in mesorah as to how great, moral and just our torah and halacha is, whether recognized by goyim, women or the world in general (i cry sometimes reading the tehilllim we say every friday night in kabbalas shabbos, speaking of how happy zion is, and the rejoicing of the women of yehuda, because of Hashem's rules (mishpatim)). there is no doubt that we have a mesorah of trying to be as lenient as possible when it comes to certain classes of people who generally get the shaft (of course agunos too, though perhaps a different type from today).
so in the specific question of whether to use loopholes and chiddushei lumdus (and R Aygart, Pruzbul is an extreme chiddush in lumdus, and you'd agree maybe if you were ever heavily involved in them), the question is where is it absolutely necessary, and we have Today's leaders here to come to consensus on what is needed. I or R Nota or anybody is not the one to decide, but we must discuss with all knowledge and consideration at the table and come to a consensus, ala the Sanhedrin way back when, where young and old, and great peeps in all parts of society, brought up all the considerations and everyone voted.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #587 on: December 02, 2015, 02:44:36 PM »
Imagine we go visit one of the many support groups in Lakewood for Wives of husbands with OCD and inform them that they really can/could have just jumped ship.

This is really happening??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization

Quote
A faulty generalization is a conclusion about all or many instances of a phenomenon that has been reached on the basis of just one or just a few instances of that phenomenon. It is an example of jumping to conclusions.

Jumping to conclusions you say? No! Can't be! Not in this thread of tzadikim ::)
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #588 on: December 02, 2015, 03:02:47 PM »

Please explain how the phrase "Totally Crazy" belongs anywhere in his memo? How does it fit with any of the other contexts?


Imagine we go visit one of the many support groups in Lakewood for Wives of husbands with OCD and inform them that they really can/could have just jumped ship.

This is really happening??

This isn't what he meant and you know it. You are either carelessly or intentionally misinterpreting his words. The letter clearly discusses a personality disorder which does not render him fully "crazy" yet creates a condition which no woman would ever marry into. Is that truly the case? I have no idea, but to go around saying that he is basing it upon the guy being a full fledged shotah or that he is saying something which would apply to half the world is simply a disingenuous misrepresentation and speaks volumes about how lshem shomayim it was that you created this thread in the first place.
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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #589 on: December 02, 2015, 03:23:00 PM »
What did he mean? He meant that there is a severe enough disorder that he would be impossible to live with. You really don't understand that?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yuneeq

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #590 on: December 02, 2015, 03:24:43 PM »
And by saying she didn't get what she bargained for is "simplifying and codifying" the process of voiding her marriage.  Again, mekach/mimcar ta'os isn't a new concept either, not even in the framework of annulling a marriage.  I'm not sure why Yuneeq is claiming it is. 

So, how is it different than pruzbal or the methods used to avoid pi shnayim in an inheritance?

Mekach taus is obviously not a new concept.
But this heter is novel because:

A) Claiming a non-major, unpersistent personality disorder makes someone crazy "in every sense of the word".
B) Mekach taus has been discussed for a crazy wife, but here it's the husband that's claimed to be crazy, not the wife. And IINM there's no precedent for annulling a marriage like that.

Mekach taus was never used in this
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 03:30:33 PM by yuneeq »
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Offline Aaaron

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #591 on: December 02, 2015, 03:29:58 PM »
Mekach taus is obviously not a new concept.
Bough this heter is novel because:

A) Claiming a personality disorder makes someone crazy "in every sense of the word".

We know that's not the case here.  Only you and CBC are harping on that sentiment. 

B) Mekach taus has been discussed for a crazy wife, but here it's the husband that's claimed to be crazy, not the wife. And IINM there's no precedent for annulling a marriage like that.

Mekach taus was never used in this

Simply false.  See Igros Moshe, E.H. [1:79 and] 1:80.  Granted, it's seemingly on another level of crazy, but mekach taus has certainly been used for this. 

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #592 on: December 02, 2015, 03:41:21 PM »
 ::) If that's your issue then it is exactly that-your issue
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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #593 on: December 02, 2015, 03:42:43 PM »
Mekach taus is obviously not a new concept.
But this heter is novel because:


B) Mekach taus has been discussed for a crazy wife, but here it's the husband that's claimed to be crazy, not the wife. And IINM there's no precedent for annulling a marriage like that.

Mekach taus was never used in this
Why would it be different for the wife? Her consent is needed in a Kidushin. Classic חילוק but no מחלק.

If Tamar is truly being taken advantage of..... Do you think that's a good enough חילוק to ruin her life? (Yes - חשבונות like that "it will ruin her life" are a factor in Halacha)

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #594 on: December 02, 2015, 03:43:42 PM »
We know that's not the case here.  Only you and CBC are harping on that sentiment. 

Simply false.  See Igros Moshe, E.H. [1:79 and] 1:80.  Granted, it's seemingly on another level of crazy, but mekach taus has certainly been used for this.


Well one way or another, either he meant fully crazy like R' Moshe, or it's a new heter that no one else spoke about. I don't see how you get out of that.

I apologize for the other mistake.
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Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #595 on: December 02, 2015, 03:44:19 PM »
... and speaks volumes about how lshem shomayim it was that you created this thread in the first place.

Quote
הר וולבה בראשית פרשת וישב (עמ' שכח)- צריך לברוח מלשם שמים כמו מאש אין לך דבר שיוצאים ממנו כ"כ הרבה טעיות כמו מכוונה לשם שמים. [דבריו שם בהקשר לדברי חז"ל דאף אשת פוטיפר נתכוונה לשם שמים]


Quote
השרף מקאצק היה אומר: "שטן ופנינה לשם שמים נתכוונו" - רשעות שכזו לא תיתכן אלא לשם שמים.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 05:16:20 PM by churnbabychurn »

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #596 on: December 02, 2015, 03:52:03 PM »


So not everything I do is leshem shomayim....
In this case to be speaking the way you are lshem Hock would be horrible.
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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #597 on: December 03, 2015, 08:11:46 AM »
I find eidensohn on his blog to be going further and further beyond the pale.  Rav aharon Feldman who was one of the first to issue a letter was very careful to only write about the heter not the ones who issued it.
This guy though who calls his blog daas torah is just crazy.  His brother thinks there is no one alive who knows halacha as well as he does and all the gedolim are all going to gehenom because they don't know halacha.  He is a drop better but still how do you dare Refer to this as "rabbinic corruption and incompetence". He is all excited looking for the smoking gun and he is somehow going to be the force to end this marriage.
Makes me sick!
Thanks for listening to my rant that was therapeutic.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #598 on: December 03, 2015, 09:03:58 AM »
I find eidensohn on his blog to be going further and further beyond the pale.  Rav aharon Feldman who was one of the first to issue a letter was very careful to only write about the heter not the ones who issued it.
This guy though who calls his blog daas torah is just crazy.  His brother thinks there is no one alive who knows halacha as well as he does and all the gedolim are all going to gehenom because they don't know halacha.  He is a drop better but still how do you dare Refer to this as "rabbinic corruption and incompetence". He is all excited looking for the smoking gun and he is somehow going to be the force to end this marriage.
Makes me sick!
Thanks for listening to my rant that was therapeutic.
+1
But seriously, a guy who calls himself daas Torah has to be off.

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #599 on: December 03, 2015, 10:18:27 AM »
+1
But seriously, a guy who calls himself daas Torah has to be off.

Is he calling himself daas torah or is it just a blog about matters involving daas torah?
I understood the latter.
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