The Tamar Epstein Saga

[yochiek93]

At this point I'm so confused!! Can someone please make a wiki with who's arguing with who.

Only thing I think I understand is that yochiek93 thinks that until the perpetrators themselves have admitted wrongdoing (or mistake making,however you look at it) nobody has any right to believe other ppl or rabanim that insist there was wrongdoing (or mistake making).
I have such a headache trying to figure out if anyone is actually arguing about the case or just arguing about whether to argue

Actually sorry to say but you don't understand me either
But I'm done with this thread

[yakrot]

Actually sorry to say but you don't understand me either
But I'm done with this thread

darn I thought I had at least that, oh well.

[yakrot]

I'm actually not saying anything pro or against the heter all I'm saying is don't bad mouth rabbonim when you think you know a story that you don't that's the end of it as I posted earlier I'm not a posek to judge this case so I will not judge but to say something against rabbonim that is intolerable

.  I think I figured out my mistake you may believe what you want but to then badmouth rabanim based on this belief which isn't %100 verifiable is wrong...chazara is the ikur

[yochiek93]

.  I think I figured out my mistake you may believe what you want but to then badmouth rabanim based on this belief which isn't %100 verifiable is wrong...chazara is the ikur

[good sam]

I'm out.

But I'm done with this thread

http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=32453.msg1312619.msg#1312619

[chaimmayer]

It sure looks like something not kosher happened but people's first impressions may very well be wrong.  People were bashing Rav shmuel and it is not clear how much he was involved.  The wind is blowing differently now and people are busy bashing his son. Were they wrong to bash him?  Maybe

How many rabbonim actually investigated the situation before they wrote their letters?  Who exactly did the eida speak to?  Do you think they called r' nota or r' sholom? I doubt it!  How about some of the other letter writers? I get the impression they are just screaming without actua,ly knowing for sure any of the facts

[yuneeq]

I think things are starting to make sense-

It sure looks like something not kosher happened but people's first impressions may very well be wrong.  People were bashing Rav shmuel and it is not clear how much he was involved.  The wind is blowing differently now and people are busy bashing his son. Were they wrong to bash him?  Maybe

It might be wrong to bash R' Sholom.

How many rabbonim actually investigated the situation before they wrote their letters?  Who exactly did the eida speak to?  Do you think they called r' nota or r' sholom? I doubt it!  How about some of the other letter writers? I get the impression they are just screaming without actua,ly knowing for sure any of the facts

But its 100% fine to bash other rabbis.

[aygart]

It sure looks like something not kosher happened but people's first impressions may very well be wrong.  People were bashing Rav shmuel and it is not clear how much he was involved.  The wind is blowing differently now and people are busy bashing his son. Were they wrong to bash him?  Maybe

How many rabbonim actually investigated the situation before they wrote their letters?  Who exactly did the eida speak to?  Do you think they called r' nota or r' sholom? I doubt it!  How about some of the other letter writers? I get the impression they are just screaming without actua,ly knowing for sure any of the facts

I think things are starting to make sense-

It might be wrong to bash R' Sholom.

But its 100% fine to bash other rabbis.

I have not seen rabbonim bashing R sholom in their letters however strongly they feel there is no heter in this case except for one letter from Monsey written by someone who I never heard of and while he may be a talmid chochom is not likely to be on the caliber of those who did not go bashing people but only the heter.

[Ergel]

I think things are starting to make sense-

It might be wrong to bash R' Sholom.

But its 100% fine to bash other rabbis.

LOL

[churnbabychurn]

How many rabbonim actually investigated the situation before they wrote their letters?  Who exactly did the eida speak to?  Do you think they called r' nota or r' sholom? I doubt it!  How about some of the other letter writers? I get the impression they are just screaming without actua,ly knowing for sure any of the facts

The eida relied on the investigation of hisachdus after independently corroborating the facts. They also heard the "other side" , as is indicated in the letter to the badatz from the hisachdus. The eida has a very solid reputation.
R Aharon Feldman writes that he investigated this, as did everyone else.

To write that chosheve rabbonim are "just screaming without knowing the facts" is very very wrong.

[chaimmayer]

How many rabbonim who signed letters do you think actually spoke to both r' nota and r' sholom to understand what the basis for the heter was and whether it was legitimate?

[Moshe123]

How many rabbonim who signed letters do you think actually spoke to both r' nota and r' sholom to understand what the basis for the heter was and whether it was legitimate?

It should have been the opposite way. R"N is in no way qualified to pasken such a heter on his own without involving at least some renowned poskim.
The facts that have been revealed since, shed light on a case where they issued a sham heter and therefore went into hiding.

[yuneeq]

It should have been the opposite way. R"N is in no way qualified to pasken such a heter on his own without involving at least some renowned poskim.

+1
If it takes me'ah rabbonim to mattir a husband to remarry (Takanas R' Gershom), it should take at least the same for an issur min hatorah, eshes ish.

[David Smith]

+1
If it takes me'ah rabbonim to mattir a husband to remarry (Takanas R' Gershom), it should take at least the same for an issur min hatorah, eshes ish.

Bad example.

[gingyguy]

+1
If it takes me'ah rabbonim to mattir a husband to remarry (Takanas R' Gershom), it should take at least the same for an issur min hatorah, eshes ish.

actually in many cases thats not the way it works. "Asu chachamim chizuk l'divrayhaem yoser mi shel torah" thats a klal found in many places over shas including seder noshim

[aygart]

+1
If it takes me'ah rabbonim to mattir a husband to remarry (Takanas R' Gershom), it should take at least the same for an issur min hatorah, eshes ish.

Bad example.

His point is still true, this is not the type of shayla that would normally be paskened by an individual posek. R Nota himself wrote that his opinion was dependent upon others joining with him.

[yuneeq]

actually in many cases thats not the way it works. "Asu chachamim chizuk l'divrayhaem yoser mi shel torah" thats a klal found in many places over shas including seder noshim

True, I gave a bad example. But still-
To create a heter for a deoraysa should be harder than using a heter for a derabanan.

[chaimmayer]

You mean like matiring an animal when you have a shaila that it might be a traifa?

[David Smith]

True, I gave a bad example. But still-
To create a heter for a deoraysa should be harder than using a heter for a derabanan.

There is a huge difference. Heter meah rabbanim is saying that the original issur is still there, but disregard it. This is saying that the issur was taken care of.

[yuneeq]

You mean like matiring an animal when you have a shaila that it might be a traifa?

Not at all.
If a heter exists to be matir, then no, you're not creating the heter.
This eshes ish heter never existed until now. And unlike treif,
this is also a heter that needs to be continuously relied on, for as long as they stay "married".