Author Topic: More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?  (Read 18378 times)

Offline chevron

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 2572
  • Total likes: 546
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
More concerned with the way others dress than hechsher?
« on: February 01, 2018, 02:04:56 PM »
My feelings about orthodoxy are amusing.. judging from the thread, many frumme dont care so much about hechsher, others seem more concerned with the dress of others.. yet so many who care about the small nuances of halachot, unfounded chumrot and plain out mishugat CANT SEEM TO SHUT THE F*** UP during prayers etc.

Hmmm I just think its stupid, idiotic ads announcing they are non gebrokhts and in meantime we find out the food is chametz etc.

The concept of malbush is very arcane, the Hebrews / Israelites survived in the Diaspora around churban  bayis rishon because of shabbat, milah, kashrut.

I wear a kipah, its about as much malbush as i'll ever need.. though I have to listen to crap from every one regarding how chasidic / orthodox jews did this or that or they saw them in a strip club etc

Here's a good piece if you can open your mindset https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/hair-coverings-for-married-women/

Quote
Throughout the Middle Ages, Jewish authorities reinforced the practice of covering womenís hair, based on the obligation derived from the Sotah story. Maimonides does not include hair covering in his list of the 613 commandments, but he does rule that leaving the house without a chador, the communal standard of modesty in Arabic countries, is grounds for divorce (Laws of Marriage 24:12). The Shulchan Aruch records that both married and unmarried women should cover their hair in public (Even Haezer 21:2), yet the Ashkenazic rulings emphasize that this obligation relates only to married women. The Zohar further entrenches the tradition by describing the mystical importance of women making sure that not a single hair is exposed.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 12:44:08 AM by Dan »

Offline chevron

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 2572
  • Total likes: 546
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2018, 02:06:01 PM »
Quote
Other Orthodox rabbinic figures have suggested that hair is no longer defined as erotic in our day and age, because most women in society do not cover their hair in public. Based on this logic, the Arukh HaShulhan concludes that men are no longer prohibited from praying in the presence of a womanís hair, and Rav Moshe Feinstein ruled that women may show a handís-breadth of hair.

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 4461
  • Total likes: 450
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2018, 02:08:42 PM »
Yeah, if it's orthodoxy itself that you're debating, you should just say that initially.

That said, ddf is not where I come for that debate

Offline chevron

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 2572
  • Total likes: 546
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2018, 02:16:10 PM »
Yeah, if it's orthodoxy itself that you're debating, you should just say that initially.

That said, ddf is not where I come for that debate

Im saying that, judaism is closely linked to society. A fact MANY refuse to accept even though its the baseline of halacha. Do you know how many times the mishna and talmud etc prohibit something because its something the egyptians do or heretics do etc.. those things are not prohibited forever.

Likewise, I find it ridiculous that malbush means that we all need to dress based on some 18th century europe custom / costume.

Regarding modesty, I would argue that as social norms have changed, a woman showing her elbows or shoulders is not ervah etc

Online yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 8887
  • Total likes: 4064
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2018, 02:41:42 PM »
Regarding modesty, I would argue that as social norms have changed, a woman showing her elbows or shoulders is not ervah etc

You can argue until you're blue in the face but it won't change the facts.
Visibly Jewish

Online Boruch999

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 2164
  • Total likes: 186
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2018, 03:34:56 PM »
Im saying that, judaism is closely linked to society. A fact MANY refuse to accept even though its the baseline of halacha. Do you know how many times the mishna and talmud etc prohibit something because its something the egyptians do or heretics do etc.. those things are not prohibited forever.

Likewise, I find it ridiculous that malbush means that we all need to dress based on some 18th century europe custom / costume.

Regarding modesty, I would argue that as social norms have changed, a woman showing her elbows or shoulders is not ervah etc
In some places in the world it is socially acceptable for a woman to go to the super market in a skimpy bathing suit. Would you say in that in such a place it is halachikly acceptable for a Jewish woman to do the same?

Offline chevron

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 2572
  • Total likes: 546
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2018, 04:08:59 PM »
The last 2 comments are moronic. Are you guys 14? I showed how regarding hair covering etc Halacha changed.

Coming at me with idiotic comparisons is an insult to whatever it is you claim to believe in

Quote
Maimonides does not include hair covering in his list of the 613 commandments, but he does rule that leaving the house without a chador, the communal standard of modesty in Arabic countries, is grounds for divorce (Laws of Marriage 24:12). The Shulchan Aruch records that both married and unmarried women should cover their hair in public


Offline eyj

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Nov 2017
  • Posts: 104
  • Total likes: 47
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2018, 04:35:27 PM »
Im saying that, judaism is closely linked to society. A fact MANY refuse to accept even though its the baseline of halacha. Do you know how many times the mishna and talmud etc prohibit something because its something the egyptians do or heretics do etc.. those things are not prohibited forever.

Likewise, I find it ridiculous that malbush means that we all need to dress based on some 18th century europe custom / costume.

Regarding modesty, I would argue that as social norms have changed, a woman showing her elbows or shoulders is not ervah etc

I find quantum physics amusing. All those scribbles and stuff that doesnít make any sense to me or any of my friends. I canít even see what in the world these people are droning on about quantum indeterminacy and such garbage that makes zero sense to me. I think everything just took a wrong turn after Newton and everyone just went off the deep end. So the whole thing is just ridiculous and irrelevant. Iím willing to debate any quantum physicist to prove the futility of his lifeís work.

Obviously coming from someone who had no more than casual contact with quantum physics such a statement is unqualified and reveals the sheer ignorance of the one making such a statement. If one would spend years speaking to top scientists in the field and going through thousands of volumes of published literature on the subject his opinions would carry some weight.

Likewise if one were to make a serious effort to learn the Mishnah gemorah medrash yerushalmi, Zohar, words of the rishonim, achronim, the hundreds of books of authentic Jewish philosophy, shaalos uteshuvos, writings of the later and contemporary achronim, spend time talking to the experts in the subject (the Gedolim and profound Jewish thinkers of the generation) then one can be taken seriously if he is dissmissive of the whole ideology and how the current body of Halacha and the leaders of Torah Jewry and their ideologyís developed. You, my friend, are passing summary judgement on the whole ideology with only the most basic, passing understanding of the tens of thousands of volumes of knowledge on the subject written by what are objectively acknowledged as some of the most brilliant men the world has ever seen. Please come back when you have acquired  some meaningful knowledge in said subject and you can then consider yourself qualified to debate the issues.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 04:43:05 PM by eyj »

Offline gingyguy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 1458
  • Total likes: 419
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 36
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: I don't like to brag
Re: Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2018, 04:47:20 PM »
when did this become a thread for people to spout kefira
yiddishkeut never changed an iota based on societal norms and it never will.
there was always differences of opinion among the gedolei Hador and their always will be. a differenr psak does not mean that we are adapting to what society currently is
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

Offline davidrotts63

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2017
  • Posts: 7250
  • Total likes: 979
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 26
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Hertz Gold, Hyatt Member, BA Blue, Ebay banned, Amazon Prime
Re: Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2018, 04:51:34 PM »
when did this become a thread for people to spout kefira
yiddishkeut never changed an iota based on societal norms and it never will.
there was always differences of opinion among the gedolei Hador and their always will be. a differenr psak does not mean that we are adapting to what society currently is
+1. SMH.
(Quit) pulling out the flowers, and watering the weeds. -Peter Lynch

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 17886
  • Total likes: 8117
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinumģ
Re: Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2018, 04:59:04 PM »
I wear a kipah, its about as much malbush as i'll ever need..

Is that because you consider yourself like אדם הראשון before חטא עץ הדעת, or because you ascribe to some form of Darwinism?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline mercaz1

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 2128
  • Total likes: 67
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Re: Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2018, 05:08:22 PM »
when did this become a thread for people to spout kefira
yiddishkeut never changed an iota based on societal norms and it never will.
there was always differences of opinion among the gedolei Hador and their always will be. a differenr psak does not mean that we are adapting to what society currently is

this is false
there have been actions taken by rabbinim over the generations to strengthen judiasim in response to societal pressures

Offline gingyguy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 1458
  • Total likes: 419
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 36
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: I don't like to brag
Re: Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2018, 05:14:47 PM »
this is false
there have been actions taken by rabbinim over the generations to strengthen judiasim in response to societal pressures
issuing a geder is not changing yiddishkeit  its a concept that been around since pretty much the beginning of time
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

Offline Sport

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 2365
  • Total likes: 103
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2018, 05:26:16 PM »
This thread, from its onset, has been full of people casting aspersions on one group of people or another, cant be suprised when it leads to other anti- torah behaviours.

Offline Menachem613

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2012
  • Posts: 1210
  • Total likes: 61
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2018, 05:29:16 PM »
when did this become a thread for people to spout kefira
yiddishkeut never changed an iota based on societal norms and it never will.
there was always differences of opinion among the gedolei Hador and their always will be. a differenr psak does not mean that we are adapting to what society currently is

Never changed one iota? How about Jewish school for woman?

Offline gingyguy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 1458
  • Total likes: 419
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 36
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: I don't like to brag
Re: Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2018, 05:33:13 PM »
for starters there was never a halacha not to have schools for women was  a prsctice or cal it whatever you want . as opposed to the specific example that was mentioned upthread of covering elbows
secondly that wasnt based on society
May you slide down the banister of happiness & get many splinters of success up your career.

Offline cmey

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 462
  • Total likes: 285
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: lakewood
Re: Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2018, 05:48:43 PM »
Im saying that, judaism is closely linked to society. A fact MANY refuse to accept even though its the baseline of halacha. Do you know how many times the mishna and talmud etc prohibit something because its something the egyptians do or heretics do etc.. those things are not prohibited forever.

Likewise, I find it ridiculous that malbush means that we all need to dress based on some 18th century europe custom / costume.

Regarding modesty, I would argue that as social norms have changed, a woman showing her elbows or shoulders is not ervah etc

My great-great uncle thought the same way you do based on family pictures and occasionally meeting his children by family events. One of his children was a conservative Rabbi. The others identified as Jewish but that was about it. The following generation, at least the ones we kept track of lost all semblance of being Jewish, at least three of them marrying Catholic/ Christian spouses, except for two of the conservative Rabbis kids who self-identified as Jewish ( however, their kids as far as we know do not consider themselves Jewish). Maybe those Rabbis were on to something....

Offline Dave321

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 1114
  • Total likes: 101
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
Re: Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2018, 05:59:19 PM »
Nah, the boys in yeshiva call him a grubbe balabus.

Offline Dave321

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 1114
  • Total likes: 101
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
Re: Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2018, 06:04:06 PM »
One thing Iím curious about is how they do it motzai pesach? Having fresh hot chametz for the guests in a reasonable amount of time after the zman sounds pretty daunting. Forget about hachana issues, assuming all the chametz was sold, frozen, and ready to go for motzai pesach, the non-jews canít handle the chametz before the Zman on behalf of the Jews since the chametz was sold and is not theirs.

Presumably the program has a kitchen full of pesach keilim, serving trays, etc that are being washed and stored for next year. Where do they heat up that kind of volume of chametz in short order? In the pesach kitchen? Does the program bring along auxiliary heating equipment that can be operated in a different location? If anyone who worked in the kitchen of such a program can fill me in Iíd appreciate it.

one place I was buy quickly moved out all the kelim outside and then they used the kashered oven that the hotel owned.

a place like greenwald where yudel shain is the mashkiach, he doesnt allow them to serve chametz moztzo.

Offline chevron

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 2572
  • Total likes: 546
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Pesach Programs and False Advertising
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2018, 07:09:50 PM »
when did this become a thread for people to spout kefira
yiddishkeut never changed an iota based on societal norms and it never will.
there was always differences of opinion among the gedolei Hador and their always will be. a differenr psak does not mean that we are adapting to what society currently is

you lack any knowledge of jewish history.