Messianism among Lubavitch

[Baruch]

This was one of the majot tainos tainos against chasidus.
Nothing new under the sun.

Huh? I read up extensively on the machlokes between Misnagdim and Chassidim, and I never once saw mention of this issue. Please elaborate. I may be misunderstanding you.

[Dan]

Honestly I don't think a survey about this subject would work. For many people this is a deeply personal thing and while they may believe it in their heart they don't talk about it in public. As is the case with many Lubavitchers.

True.

While Baruch can say he was quoted "Shittisim", I've heard from other people that there are many from that sect that most certainly do believe that.
Whether they'll freely admit that to an outsider is another story though.

[henche]

Ah, I have a question.

Doesn't every dor have a nosi/manhig hador? 

[Baruch]

The obvious question is how to define dor. Will there be yellow flaggers in 60 years from now?

If the reason why you say "could be" is because you have a safeik how to define dor, then why did you say that if someone says "could be" on his live Rebbe he would be the same as the Lubavitch shita? That reasoning is so un"Dan"like. I would appreciate some intellectual honesty.

[churnbabychurn]

And the other viznitz don't believe their Rebbe is the manhig/nosi hador?

Noone but chabbad use term nosi hador.

Words matter. This term was coined to induce some kind of dynastic royalty attributed to the last couple of leaders.

No chassidim use this anywhere near in an extreme way as chabbad.

[henche]

Huh? I read up extensively on the machlokes between Misnagdim and Chassidim, and I never once saw mention of this issue. Please elaborate. I may be misunderstanding you.

You mean you read this thread.

[jj1000]

True.

While Baruch can say he was quoted "Shittisim", I've heard from other people that there are many from that sect that most certainly do believe that.
Whether they'll freely admit that to an outsider is another story though.

How many Lubavichers do you know that won't ever say the Rebbe is mashiach in public but will tell you behind closed doors after a few shots? Thousands probably?

No reason the same can't apply elsewhere.

[churnbabychurn]

How many Lubavichers do you know that won't ever say the Rebbe is mashiach in public but will tell you behind closed doors after a few shots? Thousands probably?

No reason the same can't apply elsewhere.

This!

That's why I don't buy the Dan's whole "fringe luny aurgument".
The problem is deep and systemic. They just won't necessarily all say it all...

[Dan]

Huh? I read up extensively on the machlokes between Misnagdim and Chassidim, and I never once saw mention of this issue. Please elaborate. I may be misunderstanding you.

Are you serious?
The Rebbe-Chosid relationship was definitely a major beef of the misnagdim

[Baruch]

You mean you read this thread.

No, I've read a half a dozen books/seforim about it.

(my roomate was obsessed with the subject and had all the books)

[Dan]

Noone but chabbad use term nosi hador.

Words matter. This term was coined to induce some kind of dynastic royalty attributed to the last couple of leaders.

No chassidim use this anywhere near in an extreme way as chabbad.

Who introduced Gadol Hador?

[jj1000]

No, I've read a half a dozen books/seforim about it.

(my roomate was obsessed with the subject and had all the books)

Did you read Rappaport's book on the subject?

[jj1000]

This!

That's why I don't buy the Dan's whole "fringe luny aurgument".
The problem is deep and systemic. They just won't necessarily all say it all...

I assume you or some of your friends want to commit suicide if they would know they get into gan eiden. Whether you say it openly or not. Just know that... And understand what your statements say about yourself, that is what I have tried to show you in my past replies, that have gone unanswered.

Good night y'all. Hope there isn't too much to read up on tomorrow.

[churnbabychurn]

Who introduced Gadol Hador?

Nosi has a dynistic /ruler/king conotation.
Gadol absolutely does not. These terms matter

[Baruch]

Are you serious?
The Rebbe-Chosid relationship was definitely a major beef of the misnagdim

You were responding to his question, which was - how can all chasidusin believe that their Rebbe is the nasi hador, if there's only one nasi hador.

As I said I may have misunderstood you. I thought you were responding to his logical question. It seems you were responding to to a different question (maybe you were responding to his wierdness comment.)
Whatever.

[churnbabychurn]

I assume you or some of your friends want to commit suicide if they would know they get into gan eiden. Whether you say it openly or not. Just know that... And understand what your statements say about yourself, that is what I have tried to show you in my past replies, that have gone unanswered.

Good night y'all. Hope there isn't too much to read up on tomorrow.

Just to give you a better night..

Actually, since tov lo lodom shelo nivra yoser mishenivra, it is actually very logical to want to die asap as long as gan Eden is guaranteed!

[Dan]

You were responding to his question, which was - how can all chasidusin believe that their Rebbe is the nasi hador, if there's only one nasi hador.

As I said I may have misunderstood you. I thought you were responding to his logical question. It seems you were responding to to a different question (maybe you were responding to his wierdness comment.)
Whatever.

Believing your Rebbe to be Manhig/Nosi hador is part of the Rebbe-Chosid relationship.
The concept of "needing" a Rebbe was a main beef of the misnagdim.

[Baruch]

Did you read Rappaport's book on the subject?

I don't recall

[mgarfin]

I think I linked another​ weird viznitz thing somewhere in the forums over years..  gonna take some real digging to find

It was a sheet from a Rebbi for young children I recall

[Baruch]

Believing your Rebbe to be Manhig/Nosi hador is part of the Rebbe-Chosid relationship.

But his logical objection was never the objection historically, it was a different beef. Whatever. Pointless to argue over this. We both agree that the Chassid-Rebbe relationship was a major beef.