Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 376261 times)

Offline dovy2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1540 on: January 12, 2024, 11:16:33 AM »
Thatís an idea firmly rooted in traditional Jewish sources. We understood itís an esoteric concept, no one adjusts the mike for him.

There are other places to point to, that doesnít ushpizim, the Gemara in ksubos about Rebbe. Put in never turned into the level that goes on in 770. Question is whatís heresy and whatís plain lunacy, I donít know the line.
One of the Rebbe's (don't rmmbr which) would actually point as to where the Ushpizin were in his Sukka.
And some rumors say that the Rebbe would walk to the side of the Shevil while being called up on Simchas Torah, when he was called up with his father-in-law


Offline Definitions2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1541 on: January 12, 2024, 11:25:38 AM »
Um, yes.

Thatís what they wanted by the eigal too.

NOT saying itís remotely the same, just proving that wanting something tangible can be catastrophic.
What's wrong in this case?

Offline jye

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1542 on: January 12, 2024, 11:29:36 AM »
I guess this was unlocked by request.
Red flag for what?
(,p.s. Did you watch kos shel eliyahu on pesach night?)

Offline Definitions2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1543 on: January 12, 2024, 11:42:04 AM »

I can't see the image clearly. I see he says something about people making seudos for Eliyohu hanavi if they get out of a tzara but I can't see what he says afterwards.

Which part are you trying to show?

Offline avromie7

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1544 on: January 12, 2024, 11:44:43 AM »
Based on everything I'm reading here, there are 2 options of who chabad can consider mashiach. Either someone who is currently alive or the nasi hador from any of the previous generations. Why is the most recent person you consider the "nasi hador" the only option?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline jye

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1545 on: January 12, 2024, 11:46:46 AM »
A tzaddik gamur of the Tanya doesn't sin. For that matter, neither does a TS"G or a beinoni of the Tanya, but sinning isn't shayich for a T"G.

You have a problem with the Baal Hatanya? Nunu. I'd say the first step is to actually learn Tanya.
From what I remember the בעל התניא holds that he may have sinned plenty but he was מזכך himself so that now he is בבחינת לבי חלל בקרבי.
The Amoraim Rabbah and Abbaye were not on this level. To claim about any one individual nowadays no matter how great he is that he is the one who is is really going out on a limb.

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1546 on: January 12, 2024, 11:47:28 AM »
Based on everything I'm reading here, there are 2 options of who chabad can consider mashiach. Either someone who is currently alive or the nasi hador from any of the previous generations. Why is the most recent person you consider the "nasi hador" the only option?
Who said only option?

If someone else shows up as moshiach chabad would go with them.

And FTR that is more than I can say about what Litvish told me about the Rebbe being moshiach.
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Offline jye

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1547 on: January 12, 2024, 11:50:13 AM »
I can't see the image clearly. I see he says something about people making seudos for Eliyohu hanavi if they get out of a tzara but I can't see what he says afterwards.

Which part are you trying to show?
He says that their intention was to donate the wine and food to poor people but if they actually put it out on the table for אליהו הנביא it would b תקרובת עבודה זרה. There are those who try to be meikel nowadays that גוים donít really do העורכים לגד שולחן but the דרכי תשובה clearly isnít in that camp.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1548 on: January 12, 2024, 11:50:48 AM »
Based on everything I'm reading here, there are 2 options of who chabad can consider mashiach. Either someone who is currently alive or the nasi hador from any of the previous generations. Why is the most recent person you consider the "nasi hador" the only option?
Because the Rebbe discussed it many times and Meshichts believe he very clearly meant it was him (although he said it about his FIL too so it gets confusing).

Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1549 on: January 12, 2024, 11:54:36 AM »
Where is @TheAsh

Didnít this open for him?
I do have a life outside finding out what Lubavitcherd really think you know. Also, I assumed that my previous posts would be moved here.
If not I'll do it motzei shabbos.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1550 on: January 12, 2024, 11:57:03 AM »
The Amoraim Rabbah and Abbaye were not on this level. To claim about any one individual nowadays no matter how great he is that he is the one who is is really going out on a limb.
Rav Moshe expressed his disconcertion about that here:   

Offline jye

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1551 on: January 12, 2024, 12:02:26 PM »
I think that two aspects are being conflated in error. צדיק גמור does NOT mean infallible in the sense that it is usually used. צדיק גמור is not a סתירה to being completely wrong. It simply means he does not have a יצר הרע being מושך him. רבי עקיבה who was a ניצוץ of משה and the source of all נגלה ונסתר we learn- כולנו אליבא דרבי עקיבה- misidentified משיח. It was not the יצר הרע it was simply that he was not infallible to the extent that Hashem wanted him to error in identifying משיח.

Online ExGingi

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1552 on: January 12, 2024, 12:03:13 PM »
Based on everything I'm reading here, there are 2 options of who chabad can consider mashiach. Either someone who is currently alive or the nasi hador from any of the previous generations. Why is the most recent person you consider the "nasi hador" the only option?

See my post above:

I guess you're on to something...


There might be better clips, but here is one.

I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1553 on: January 12, 2024, 12:04:17 PM »
What does a Lubavitcher expect a non Lubavitcherto think if he believes the Rebbe is mistaken about x,(whatever it may be, not important)?

It would be fruitless to expect him to believe that really itís just perception and really the Rebbe is right etc.

So his options are:

1) A tzaddik gamur can make a mistake.

2) The Rebbe isnít a tzaddik Gamur (like most tzaddikim out there.)

Offline avromie7

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1554 on: January 12, 2024, 12:13:49 PM »
Who said only option?

If someone else shows up as moshiach chabad would go with them.

And FTR that is more than I can say about what Litvish told me about the Rebbe being moshiach.
The infatuation chabad has with "The Rebbe IS Mashiach" sounds like they are 100% convinced that that is the only option. I'm trying to figure out how they came to that conclusion.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1555 on: January 12, 2024, 12:20:24 PM »
Who said only option?

If someone else shows up as moshiach chabad would go with them.

And FTR that is more than I can say about what Litvish told me about the Rebbe being moshiach.

I doubt it. (At least the meshichists). Their whole life was spent screaming yechi and waving yellow flags and putting up stupid stickers everywhere and doing mivtzoim that revovle around accepting the Rebbes matches and nevuah, and suddenly someone else says he was mashiach they accept him!? I call bs.

Furthermore,  the Rebbes death didn't stop them, and they found obscure sources that a dead person can be moshaich (something belied by the very concept of Moshiach Shebador) I'm sure they'd find some sources that there are two moshiach ben davids or something.
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Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1556 on: January 12, 2024, 12:23:34 PM »
Like this nut will suddenly accept someone else as Moshiach? I doubt it.
https://forward.com/news/507424/messiah-is-here-signs-new-york-chabad-schneerson/

Once one is stuck in a conspiracy theory (which is essentially what meshichistim, no matter the scoop level, is) there's no way out.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1557 on: January 12, 2024, 12:30:12 PM »
The infatuation chabad has with "The Rebbe IS Mashiach" sounds like they are 100% convinced that that is the only option. I'm trying to figure out how they came to that conclusion.
This is a misunderstanding. Meshichistim believe that proclaiming the Rebbe is moshiach will bring moshiach sooner.

If moshiach is not the Rebbe, they'll gladly accept that and will ask the Rebbe or eliyahu their questions. But the Rebbe's kuch was about moshiach, the only debate is how to accomplish that.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1558 on: January 12, 2024, 12:33:45 PM »
This is a misunderstanding. Meshichistim believe that proclaiming the Rebbe is moshiach will bring moshiach sooner.

If moshiach is not the Rebbe, they'll gladly accept that and will ask the Rebbe or eliyahu their questions. But the Rebbe's kuch was about moshiach, the only debate is how to accomplish that.
Donít meshichistim believe unequivocally that the Rebbe meant he was moshiach?

Essentially, you are saying they believe there is a possibility that he was wrong.

Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1559 on: January 12, 2024, 12:39:13 PM »
Donít meshichistim believe unequivocally that the Rebbe meant he was moshiach?

Essentially, you are saying they believe there is a possibility that he was wrong.

Meshichist: they all hold like me but they're just afraid to say it.

Non meshichist: they all hold like.me but they are just afraid to say it.
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