Messianism among Lubavitch

[Achas Veachas]

Disagree strongly.
But am totally not interested in getting into this argument.

If you learn this Rambam like you learn all Rambams, you would never say that the Rebbe fits the description.
If you hold the Rebbe is Moshiach and want the Rambam to shtim with that belief, you can drey the Rambam like a pretzel and have it shtim.

I wish there would be intellectual honesty on both sides of this argument.

I believe that after learning the Rambam in depth without preconceptions - there are 2 conclusions:

1. It is very mashma that Moshiach can come from the dead, as long as he wasn't killed. (I might be the only Litvak alive who will concede that point  )

2. Nobody since Bar Kochva came even close to being Bechezkas Moshiach. Probably nobody even fulfilled 1 of the tnaim!

(If your me'aiyn in the Rambam, you'll realize that the mekor for e/t he's saying was the story of Bar Kochva. So when you try to figure out what each tnay means exactly - think Bar Kochva)

I don't see how you can be so amendment that the Rambam CAN'T be talking about the Rebbe (not even 1 of the Tna'im? for real? There are at least 2 that are beyond debate: ואם יעמוד... מבית דויד הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצוות כדויד אביו, כפי תורה שבכתב ושבעל פה...).

I have a letter from my great-great-grandfather (A Chossid of the Rebbe Rasha"b, a very respected Rov, served at one point as the Rebbe Rashab's personal Rov), way before anyone accused Chabad of being overly messianic. He was writing to a friend of his, the Rov in Chernigov, both are people you wouldn't accuse of excess Chassidishe zeal and narrow-mindedness. In the letter he describes in great excitement a "discovery" he made that the Rambam in Hilchos Melachim matches the Rebbe Rashab perfectly.

If people said about the Rebbe Rashab that he fulfilled ויכוף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה, ויילחם מלחמות ה' how much more so for the Rebbe with his network of Shluchim and Chabad houses and numerous campaigns he led can fit the bill.

I understand that someone can think otherwise, but to accuse someone who understands it that way with intellectual dishonesty?

[jj1000]

@Baruch First of all this

I don't see how you can be so amendment that the Rambam CAN'T be talking about the Rebbe (not even 1 of the Tna'im? for real? There are at least 2 that are beyond debate: ואם יעמוד... מבית דויד הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצוות כדויד אביו, כפי תורה שבכתב ושבעל פה...).

I have a letter from my great-great-grandfather (A Chossid of the Rebbe Rasha"b, a very respected Rov, served at one point as the Rebbe Rashab's personal Rov), way before anyone accused Chabad of being overly messianic. He was writing to a friend of his, the Rov in Chernigov, both are people you wouldn't accuse of excess Chassidishe zeal and narrow-mindedness. In the letter he describes in great excitement a "discovery" he made that the Rambam in Hilchos Melachim matches the Rebbe Rashab perfectly.

If people said about the Rebbe Rashab that he fulfilled ויכוף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה, ויילחם מלחמות ה' how much more so for the Rebbe with his network of Shluchim and Chabad houses and numerous campaigns he led can fit the bill.

I understand that someone can think otherwise, but to accuse someone who understands it that way with intellectual dishonesty?

Second of all to me the whole point of this thread was to show that people who believe the Rebbe can be moshiach or is even bi'chezkas moshiach are not kofrim and have sources in Jewish tradition. So if it can fit than that's good enough for the purposes of this thread imho.

Third as for the last points. Bar kochba had much opposition within the Jewish world, so the Rambam clearly doesn't mean כל ישראל literally. And as for the Rebbe was there ever a leader in history that dedicated more of his life to bringing Jews to be more observant worldwide than the Rebbe?

And as for war it also means it figuratively as explained in Torah Shelemah on vayikra 21:14, par. 84. Aside from the fact that most prime ministers consulted the rebbe about war strategy and he worked for the Navy .

Anyway it's not an argument, just trying to show possible explanations if you want them.

[asd]

What is the point of believing he could be moshiach, how does that benefit your avodas hashem and your tafkid on this world ?

[moish]

And as for war it also means it figuratively as explained in Torah Shelemah on vayikra 21:14, par. 84.

but didnt he himself write that the Rambam’s language means literal wars including the destruction of Amalek?

[Joe4007]

As said and confirmed earlier, in most chassidus they believe their rebbe to be moshiach.

That's news to me.

[jj1000]

What is the point of believing he could be moshiach, how does that benefit your avodas hashem and your tafkid on this world ?

Exactly. As has been said many times it doesn't affect the chabad teachings or how one lives their life one iota. It seems the litvish world made this topic to be a central belief of chabad while chabad themselves don't.

but didnt he himself write that the Rambam’s language means literal wars including the destruction of Amalek?

I don't recall hearing it describing the destruction of Amalek besides for maybe talking about mashiach vaday.

That's news to me.

Learn new things everyday.

[moish]

I don't recall hearing it describing the destruction of Amalek besides for maybe talking about mashiach vaday.

i dont think so

[Dan]

That's news to me.

Nobody would consider "belz" as a meshichist chasidis. I heard once from the Belze Rebbe, by a yahrteit tish of the prebious rebber R' Aron TZ"L:
"we all believe that the uncle (R' Aron) was meshiach, and if he wasn't, he had the ability to be".
I learned from that, that actually every chasid should think on his Rebbe, that he is Meshiach, or at least have the ability of being Mashiach.

You are again missing the point. Every chosid has the right to believe his rebbe is tzadik hador.

But to think he's manhig hador? yes

That's how all talmidei baal shem choose their rebbe, based on what they thought he has the strength and koiach to be manhig hador, and that's how it went m'dor dor...

Manhig hador = mashiach

I am just wondering how much of the debaters here have finished a single chasidish sefer that they find so funny that someone should believe that the tzadik hador is mashiach...

It's pretty simple, mashiach is going to be the manhig hador. Everybody has their own right to guess who the manhig hador is. And if Chabad decided that it's rebbe, what the hell do you care?

Some quotes from other non-chabad related sforim, that the manhig hador is mashiach.
There is 100's out there, I just have no time to collect them right now.

:אהל שלמה ח"ב עמוד י"ח
בני הרב הצדיק הקדוש רבי אברהם זצ"ל מטשעכעוו הסמוך ללובלין שאלו את היהודי הקדוש זצ"ל בעודנו תלמיד אצל האדמו"ר הרבי מלובלין זצ"ל מה זה הדבר הלא אבינו יושב ולומד כל היום כולו כי הוא היה איש קדוש מאוד גאון מופלג וסיגף עצמו בתעניתים ובעל מופת וממש לא תמוש התורה מפיו ורודף צדקה וחסד ומדוע לא ינהרו אליו אלפים ורבבות כאשר ירוצו אל הרבי מלובלין זי"ע והשיב היהודי הקדוש זי"ע "כי כל צדיק וצדיק צריך להיות לו ניצוץ ממשיח ואם לאו אינו יכול להיות מנהיג הדור

:תפארת שלמה - חנוכה ד"ה זכר עשה
מטעם זה גלי נמצרים נכבד ישועה על פני תהום הלל כי עיקר חיות... ואחר כך יצמיח להם ישועה על ידי צדיק הדור.

שבט מיהודה להרה"ג רבי יהודא גרינוולד - אבד"ק סאטמאר:
תאר במלים מזעזעים את עבודתו בקח ו הרבה ומסירת נפשו למען הכלל ישראל וכותב על ידו נקבעו יושבי ביהמד"ר יומם ולילה לא יחשו נפלה עט"ר צבי תפארתינו מו"ר משיח ה' הק' דבעלז ד'ל כ"ז שהיה הצדיק הדור...,

:לקוטי מוהר"ן ב ו ט ד קי"ח אבל בודאי
"כי אמנם שגם זה אמת כי כל צדיק הדור יש בו בחינת משה משיח"

So Pshischa - Breslov - radomsk - belz and others have the right to believe that the manhig hador is mashiach, but chabad doesn't?

You can say you don't believe is chasiddus at all, and including that what their sforim say, buy why have you put your hands on chabad just because of the few extreme ones?
1. people like you have said this when the Baal shem tov appeared, and we all know the hemshech... And yes, chabad with this movement hasn't gone away from chassidus at all, as I mentioned already.
2. All those in history tried to implant this on others. I don't think chabad has that intention.

[Achas Veachas]

What is the point of believing he could be moshiach, how does that benefit your avodas hashem and your tafkid on this world ?

Ding Ding Ding Ding!

Now the thread can be closed again for another half a year

[jj1000]

Ding Ding Ding Ding!

Now the thread can be closed again for another half a year ever

+1

i dont think so

Again look at Bar Kochba he had cheskas moshiach and did not did not destroy amalek, so it would seem that is not a requirement.

[elit]

Exactly. As has been said many times it doesn't affect the chabad teachings or how one lives their life one iota. It seems the litvish world made this topic to be a central belief of chabad while chabad themselves don't.

I think that's pushing it a little. If whenever a litvak is in a Chabad house they see pictures of the Rebbe, statements and banners of yechi, etc... Everywhere (including in one instance for myself seeing his picture prominently displayed in front of the chazans amud) you can't say we are the ones making it central.... And if not for this thread i wouldn't know that many lubavitchers disagree with this approach

[moish]

Again look at Bar Kochba he had cheskas moshiach and did not did not destroy amalek, so it would seem that is not a requirement.

Likkutei Sichos vol. 16 pp. 304-305 n. 49

[Achas Veachas]

I think that's pushing it a little. If whenever a litvak is in a Chabad house they see pictures of the Rebbe, statements and banners of yechi, etc... Everywhere (including in one instance for myself seeing his picture prominently displayed in front of the chazans amud) you can't say we are the ones making it central.... And if not for this thread i wouldn't know that many lubavitchers disagree with this approach

You sound like you've been to verry few Chabad Houses...

[elit]

You sound like you've been to verry few Chabad Houses...

That's true i haven't been to many but the few i have...

[JoeCha]

It's hard for a chassid to say dead.
That being said, i go to the ohel, we went to the levaya.
So i guess the answer would be yes

So what exactly do you mean by saying yechi?
Seems like you realize he's dead.

[Freddie]

I think that's pushing it a little. If whenever a litvak is in a Chabad house they see pictures of the Rebbe, statements and banners of yechi, etc... Everywhere (including in one instance for myself seeing his picture prominently displayed in front of the chazans amud) you can't say we are the ones making it central.... And if not for this thread i wouldn't know that many lubavitchers disagree with this approach

What does that have to do with Moshiach? A person puts up a picture of the Rebbe because it represents his connection to the Rebbe. Hiskashrus to the tzadik IS a central concept in Chabad (and of all Judaism.) Please don't mix that with Moshiach.

[elit]

Again I'm not arguing that it's central I'm just saying that the many vocal moshiachists are the ones who create the perception (even if they are a minority) not litvaks

[Dan]

Everywhere (including in one instance for myself seeing his picture prominently displayed in front of the chazans amud)

I've been to hundreds of chabad houses and have never seen that. Which chabad house?

[elit]

What does that have to do with Moshiach? A person puts up a picture of the Rebbe because it represents his connection to the Rebbe. Hiskashrus to the tzadik IS a central concept in Chabad (and of all Judaism.) Please don't mix that with Moshiach.

I have never seen and (correct me if I'm wrong )dint think i ever will see a different rebbe or gadol prominently positioned so that the chazan is davening in a way that looks like directly at it

[Dan]

Kgh, queens

Please post a picture of it.
Did you ever ask the rabbi there about it?