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הוי זהיר בגחלתם שלא תכוה, שנשיכתן נשיכת שועל ועקיצתן עקיצת עקרב, ולחישתן לחישת שרף, וכל דבריהם כגחלי אש

« Last edited by Baruch on March 30, 2016, 01:00:08 PM »

Author Topic: The Tamar Epstein Saga  (Read 284866 times)

Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #220 on: November 10, 2015, 01:49:24 PM »

I'll just play devil's advocate here who considers it wrong only the women's side...

Disagree. I'd wager there are plenty of men who feel that witholding a get is wrong, especially in certain cases.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #221 on: November 10, 2015, 01:49:34 PM »
She violated halacha by going to secular courts? If yes: sometimes I wake up late and don't daven. Because I struggle with that are you saying shabbas and kosher and 613 other things are "worth nothing" to me? Said another way, are you claiming to be perfect?

Yes if the BD didn't send her there, she violated Halacha.
I was waiting for you to mention the violation of other random aveiros.

The difference here, is that the get process requires doing to BD to resolve the money issues and other issues. If she doesn't believe in the process and decides to go to court that's her problem.
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Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #222 on: November 10, 2015, 01:50:16 PM »
Bad people rape rob and murder.
Everybody who believes that the court is being unfair (possibly because he knows for a fact that his wife lied), will withold a get.

Bad people rape, rob, and murder? Well, I'd argue that withholding a get in certain instances makes that person "bad."

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Offline yochiek93

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #223 on: November 10, 2015, 01:50:33 PM »


Again, a value judgment.

"Make things right?" What on earth does that mean?

Also, your first question pretty much exposes your position on this.

Not really I'm just bringing out the husbands side it can go both ways so don't jump to conclusions

Offline Redbull3

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #224 on: November 10, 2015, 01:51:42 PM »
Yes if the BD didn't send her there, she violated Halacha.
I was waiting for you to mention the violation of other random aveiros.

The difference here, is that the get process requires doing to BD to resolve the money issues and other issues. If she doesn't believe in the process and decides to go to court that's her problem.
It is an aveira to use secular courts to resolve financial and custody disputes- is that what you are saying? If yes, I hear where you are coming from. That sounds super radical to my modern orthodox ears.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #225 on: November 10, 2015, 01:51:54 PM »
How often is it only  that?
Hopefully not very often but in this situation I would have to rely of the common sense G-d gave me. I would ask myself what would G-d want me to do in this situation. No need to ask yourself what is the right thing to do. Any decent person knows the answer to that.
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Offline yochiek93

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #226 on: November 10, 2015, 01:52:04 PM »
Disagree. I'd wager there are plenty of men who feel that witholding a get is wrong, especially in certain cases.
I'm not arguing that it goes for all cases but same goes the other way as well

Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #227 on: November 10, 2015, 01:52:19 PM »
Bad people rape, rob, and murder? Well, I'd argue that withholding a get in certain instances makes that person "bad."
Of course! The key words being "in certain instances".
@RedBull is advocating that using the get as leverage is always bad.

Offline yochiek93

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #228 on: November 10, 2015, 01:53:05 PM »
Of course! The key words being "in certain instances".
@RedBull is advocating that using the get as leverage is always bad.
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Offline Baruch

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #229 on: November 10, 2015, 01:53:26 PM »
It is an aveira to use secular courts to resolve financial and custody disputes- is that what you are saying? If yes, I hear where you are coming from. That sounds super radical to my modern orthodox ears.
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Offline Redbull3

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #230 on: November 10, 2015, 01:54:48 PM »

Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #231 on: November 10, 2015, 01:55:04 PM »

Not really I'm just bringing out the husbands side it can go both ways so don't jump to conclusions

I'm not jumping to anything; I simply commented that a Court makes determinations based on the "best interests of the child." And, again, barring any extra ordinary circumstances, I'll that that determination over the very obviously biased position of one of the parties.

All this nonsense about "making things right" and "the guy feels" and "believes" he got the short end of the stick, etc.

I guess the only retort would be that a BD would have decided differently than the court; that's a tougher question.
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #232 on: November 10, 2015, 01:58:25 PM »
I'm not jumping to anything; I simply commented that a Court makes determinations based on the "best interests of the child." And, again, barring any extra ordinary circumstances, I'll that that determination over the very obviously biased position of one of the parties.

All this nonsense about "making things right" and "the guy feels" and "believes" he got the short end of the stick, etc.

I guess the only retort would be that a BD would have decided differently than the court; that's a tougher question.
Most of the time that's why they're in court in the first place.

Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #233 on: November 10, 2015, 01:58:52 PM »
Of course! The key words being "in certain instances".
@RedBull is advocating that using the get as leverage is always bad.

What I'm saying is that I don't believe that a man is ipso facto entitled to withhold the get simply because he decides that a Court "wronged him."

To be sure, it would appear the Torah gives him that right, but I'm not sure it's a "Torah value" to withhold a get without a valid, objective basis.

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Offline yochiek93

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #234 on: November 10, 2015, 02:00:03 PM »
What I'm saying is that I don't believe that a man is ipso facto entitled to withhold the get simply because he decides that a Court "wronged him."

To be sure, it would appear the Torah gives him that right, but I'm not sure it's a "Torah value" to withhold a get without a valid, objective basis.
Good point

Offline AJK

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #235 on: November 10, 2015, 02:01:14 PM »
Most of the time that's why they're in court in the first place.

That's an issue.

This is going to sound weird coming from a secular court litigator, but if Gd-fearing Jew would have pursued his claims in BD, would have gotten a verdict more favorable than what was decided by a secular court (to which he was dragged against is will), I must say that in my view, the husband has a leg to stand on...
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Offline Redbull3

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #236 on: November 10, 2015, 02:01:35 PM »
What I'm saying is that I don't believe that a man is ipso facto entitled to withhold the get simply because he decides that a Court "wronged him."

To be sure, it would appear the Torah gives him that right, but I'm not sure it's a "Torah value" to withhold a get without a valid, objective basis.
This is  exactly how I feel, except I would replace "I'm not sure" with "I'm sure it's not".

Offline avromie7

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #237 on: November 10, 2015, 02:03:28 PM »
I'm not jumping to anything; I simply commented that a Court makes determinations based on the "best interests of the child." And, again, barring any extra ordinary circumstances, I'll that that determination over the very obviously biased position of one of the parties.

All this nonsense about "making things right" and "the guy feels" and "believes" he got the short end of the stick, etc.

I guess the only retort would be that a BD would have decided differently than the court; that's a tougher question.
The courts are very feminist, they are not unbiased. The husband has a right to demand it all be settled according to halacha.
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Offline Aaaron

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #238 on: November 10, 2015, 02:05:58 PM »
Yes if the BD didn't send her there, she violated Halacha.
I was waiting for you to mention the violation of other random aveiros.

The difference here, is that the get process requires doing to BD to resolve the money issues and other issues. If she doesn't believe in the process and decides to go to court that's her problem.

No it doesn't.  That's modernish BS.  The get is a wholly separate entity from money and custody issues.  It's only tied together by recalcitrant husbands and their supporters.  Give me a m'kor for the husband to be able to withhold the get until the other issues are resolved? 

Separate question:  If she gets a monetary and custody award greater than what halacha would dictate, is she stealing/kidnapping?

Offline avromie7

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Re: The Tamar Epstein Saga
« Reply #239 on: November 10, 2015, 02:07:33 PM »
Let's say she broke into his house, beat him up and stole his money. Even then, you think withholding a Get as "punishment" is less than pure evil? I just can't see that side. Am I the only one?
A get is the conclusion of a marriage, a marriage is not over till all the details are worked out. If she is withholding from him his halachik rights to see his kids and she's extracting money against halacha the marriage isn't over.
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