The Tamar Epstein Saga

[SayWhat]

How would following halacha get her a get? Just curious

Had she not walked out of Bais Din she would have gotten her Get

[aygart]

Even if there are, then fine, don't abide by the law, don't let her have the kids/money and risk contempt/jail. How do we extend the right to withold a get in this or any scenario? It is obvious to me that withholding a get is like torturing someone. Are you allowed to torture for money/custody that is halachikly rightfully yours but denied by the legal system?

Taking a man's children away from him without visitation rights is not torture?

[cholent]

Had she not walked out of Bais Din she would have gotten her Get

I'm not familiar with the details of this story. Why did she do that? Doesn't seem to make sense

[avromie7]

I'm not familiar with the details of this story. Why did she do that? Doesn't seem to make sense

If she would follow the rules he would not withhold the get

[Redbull3]

Taking a man's children away from him without visitation rights is not torture?

Relevance? If someone is mean to you, you can be mean back? Where is that halacha.

I was/am surprised by this thread, I didn't realize there were a lot of people who supported get refusal in any instances. Probably cuz DDF is my only window into yeshivish hock.

[yochiek93]

How would following halacha get her a get? Just curious

If she would follow halacha.... He would've given the get already

[avromie7]

Relevance? If someone is mean to you, you can be mean back? Where is that halacha.

I was/am surprised by this thread, I didn't realize there were a lot of people who supported get refusal in any instances. Probably cuz DDF is my only window into yeshivish hock.

If someone is mean to you there is no reason in the world to be nice to them especially if it hurts you.

[Redbull3]

If she would follow halacha.... He would've given the get already

Can you explain (rather than repeat)?

[yochiek93]

Can you explain (rather than repeat)?

If lets say she wants x amount of money (ksuba) and the kids with no visitation rights with child support and alimony... Then he obviously won't want to give a get if she was rational in the divorce proceedings he would've given the get
BTW could be he really is a terrible guy.... But just look at the other side also don't right away blame the  husband.

[aygart]

Relevance? If someone is mean to you, you can be mean back? Where is that halacha.

I was/am surprised by this thread, I didn't realize there were a lot of people who supported get refusal in any instances. Probably cuz DDF is my only window into yeshivish hock.

As Avromie7 wrote, she can end it in a jiffy. (not talking about this case butin many general cases) All she needs to do is stop trying to take his kids and all his money and future income away from him.

[Redbull3]

If lets say she wants x amount of money (ksuba) and the kids with no visitation rights with child support and alimony... Then he obviously won't want to give a get if she was rational in the divorce proceedings he would've given the get
BTW could be he really is a terrible guy.... But just look at the other side also don't right away blame the  husband.

As Avromie7 wrote, she can end it in a jiffy. (not talking about this case butin many general cases) All she needs to do is stop trying to take his kids and all his money and future income away from him.

"Just, like, give him what he wants and then we will free you" - why should she concede anything in order to be freed? The price of freedom should be $0. Other stuff can be resolved separately, the Get itself shouldn't be tied to it. Guys should give gets or get a cattle prod.
Withholding a Get is abusive and serves one purpose.. one last act of maintaining control over the woman, not letting her remarry. It is insane that you guys want to assign any kind of terms to a woman in order to receive a Get.

[SayWhat]

I'm not familiar with the details of this story. Why did she do that? Doesn't seem to make sense

She got a better deal in the secular courts  than she would have gotten in Bais Din. She figured she could get the Get later.

[a mirrer]

"Just, like, give him what he wants and then we will free you" - why should she concede anything in order to be freed? The price of freedom should be $0. Other stuff can be resolved separately, the Get itself shouldn't be tied to it. Guys should give gets or get a cattle prod.
Withholding a Get is abusive and serves one purpose.. one last act of maintaining control over the woman, not letting her remarry. It is insane that you guys want to assign any kind of terms to a woman in order to receive a Get.

not when the woman doesn't listen to din tora  (disclaimer i have no idea what the story was in this case)

[yuneeq]

"Just, like, give him what he wants and then we will free you" - why should she concede anything in order to be freed? The price of freedom should be $0. Other stuff can be resolved separately, the Get itself shouldn't be tied to it. Guys should give gets or get a cattle prod.
Withholding a Get is abusive and serves one purpose.. one last act of maintaining control over the woman, not letting her remarry. It is insane that you guys want to assign any kind of terms to a woman in order to receive a Get.

The price of a get should be $0. I agree.
Both for her and for him.
The problem starts when she tries to unfairly extract money from him and take the get.

[a mirrer]

The price of a get should be $0. I agree.
Both for her and for him.

besides for kesuba

[Baruch]

"Just, like, give him what he wants and then we will free you" - why should she concede anything in order to be freed? The price of freedom should be $0. Other stuff can be resolved separately, the Get itself shouldn't be tied to it. Guys should give gets or get a cattle prod.
Withholding a Get is abusive and serves one purpose.. one last act of maintaining control over the woman, not letting her remarry. It is insane that you guys want to assign any kind of terms to a woman in order to receive a Get.

I have no clue to the facts of the Tamar Epstein case.

But if a man feels that the courts took away his visitation rights unfairly.

And he believes that his (ex) wife is acting unfairly.

I see no reason why he shouldn't use a get as leverage.

I'm sure you would too. Can you imagine losing the right to see your children?


If she used unfair tactics (lying) in the power struggle, so should you!

[yochiek93]

"Just, like, give him what he wants and then we will free you" - why should she concede anything in order to be freed? The price of freedom should be $0. Other stuff can be resolved separately, the Get itself shouldn't be tied to it. Guys should give gets or get a cattle prod.
Withholding a Get is abusive and serves one purpose.. one last act of maintaining control over the woman, not letting her remarry. It is insane that you guys want to assign any kind of terms to a woman in order to receive a Get.

What did you say a few posts up "if someone is mean to you doesn't mean you can be back so if a husband withholds a get that means he should be tortured into giving it?
And just BTW reread my post all I'm saying is look at both sides don't just judge

[Redbull3]

The price of a get should be $0. I agree.
Both for her and for him.
The problem starts when she tries to unfairly extract money from him and take the get.

Let's say she broke into his house, beat him up and stole his money. Even then, you think withholding a Get as "punishment" is less than pure evil? I just can't see that side. Am I the only one?

[yochiek93]

besides for kesuba

That all depends on who walks out on who.... There are cases where the guy is not חייב to pay the kesuba

[Redbull3]

What did you say a few posts up "if someone is mean to you doesn't mean you can be back so if a husband withholds a get that means he should be tortured into giving it?
And just BTW reread my post all I'm saying is look at both sides don't just judge

You're right actually very good- I back off my cattle prod comment.