The Future of Lakewood

[herb]

Your cousin was seen (presumably) by hundreds of people. I have a hard time finding much significance in the comment of one drunk high school kid.

agreed.

I can see some immature drunk boys doing things that they shouldn't, but otherwise, I agree.

[Just A Jew]

That this happened to more than one person lends some level of legitamcy to the posted story. Everyone's quick to blame it on drunk kids, and that may actually be the case. But that such a mentality exists, where drunk kids are saying the quiet part out loud (drunks words, sober thoughts), should be concerning enough.

[Euclid]

I just want to see their costumes; writing this letter without providing pix is a capital offense.

[imayid2]

Despicable
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2271681/mailbag-im-not-a-shaygetz-mamzer-or-tziyoni-why-did-lakewood-residents-call-my-family-that.html

For all those who said this story was made up- keep being in denial. This story happened to our family yesterday. We submitted it. We are not afraid nor are or will be intimidated by Jew-hating Jews (such as the ones who think that this story was made up). What occurred happened not once, not twice, not three times, but around 5-6 times.

We do not live in Lakewood. We are out-of-towners who wanted to experience the “holiness” of Purim in Lakewood (for the first and last time); we will not name where we live. We have multiple family members who work in Lakewood, support Lakewood in many different ways. We had no ill whims against Lakewood. Until we were woken up to a rather disgusting side. (I want to add that I’m sure not all of Lakewood feels this sentiment but it was painful to wake up to “right next door to where I live” when 1400 of our brothers and sisters were murdered in horrific ways and 130+ more are still in Gaza).

The first occasion occurred on the corner of Central and where Madison turns into River. A person who looked like a Jew (wore a black hat, had a beard and payos), drove a car like a Jew (older version Toyota Sienna), screamed out the window with his entire family in the car “TZIYONIM!!!!”, his wife mortified at his behavior. The second incident happened at the corner of Jackson Pines and New Central, a couple of assumed inebriated young men tried pulling our Israeli Flag out of our car while screaming “TZIYONIM!!!! Sheigitz!!” The third incident occurred outside a shul in the Hearthstone neighborhood (since you think this is made up feel free to ask the shul and who the Rov is because I can whip up a “made up” name for you [ie I know the shul and the Rov, you idiots]) where a father egged on his young son to scream “why are you wearing a towel on your back?” to one of the members of our family who was wearing an Israeli flag. The fourth incident occurred at the corner of Mark and Pine where two adolescents almost had an aneurysm when they saw the Israeli flag- they screamed “TZIYONIM!”, came out our car with fists.

I don’t need to go on, I don’t need to provide you with video proof- there were 5 people in the car with us. Believe whatever makes you sleep at night. The Nazis came for you too and so would have Hamas….

[avromie7]

That this happened to more than one person lends some level of legitamcy to the posted story. Everyone's quick to blame it on drunk kids, and that may actually be the case. But that such a mentality exists, where drunk kids are saying the quiet part out loud (drunks words, sober thoughts), should be concerning enough.

They're not saying the quiet part loud. They're making dumb comments. It may also be someone who dressed up as a satmar chossid and wanted to "play the part".

I lived in lakewood for 30 years and never heard such comments.

[dasmo801]

That this happened to more than one person lends some level of legitamcy to the posted story. Everyone's quick to blame it on drunk kids, and that may actually be the case. But that such a mentality exists, where drunk kids are saying the quiet part out loud (drunks words, sober thoughts), should be concerning enough.

Kids see clips of hafgonos in Eretz Yisrael. Some kids get a kick out of mimicing these extreme behaviors. As a parent of a few teenagers, the idea that teenagers aren't good with nuance isn't exactly news to me.

[aygart]

Meanwhile every example was only that they were called tzionim not mamzerim. I could hear why someone might think someone overly dressed in Israeli flags might be one. It seems strange to me that the person is so hurt by being called that. It is not like he wasn't trying to be making an extreme and controversial statement.

[jye]

Despicable
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2271681/mailbag-im-not-a-shaygetz-mamzer-or-tziyoni-why-did-lakewood-residents-call-my-family-that.html

Good thing he wasn’t by the BMG Purim night Tish in Bais Aharon where the IDF and Israeli government was soundly lambasted in the speech. 

[Euclid]

Hope I'm articulating this well:

An Israeli flag as a costume in a city like Lakewood could only be assumed it's being done "ironically"*. And therefore the costume wearer is expecting to get "negative attention". Good chance that these kids screaming this are also doing it "ironically", i.e. they're just reacting in the expected manner, and they had no idea that the costumes were being worn out of respect and pride.

*ironically, meaning that while most people in Lakewood support Israel, it's not expressed in a manner of overt Zionistic patriotism. So someone wearing an Israeli flag is assumed to be doing it "as a joke".

[gozalim]

Also, the writer is clearly mostly concerned with the antizionism of the event than with any of the level of animosity they personally experienced

[dasmo801]

Good thing he wasn’t by the BMG Purim night Tish in Bais Aharon where the IDF and Israeli government was soundly lambasted in the speech.

"Soundly lambasted" along the lines of, our ישועה will not come from the IDF but from HKBH, or was it more soundly lambasted than that?

[dasmo801]

*ironically, meaning that while most people in Lakewood support Israel, it's not expressed in a manner of overt Zionistic patriotism. So someone wearing an Israeli flag is assumed to be doing it "as a joke".

Depends what you mean by "support Israel"
As I understand it, from my upbringing and from my chinuch (45+ year in Lakewood and Lakewood type yeshivos)
Lakewood, and the Yeshiva World in general believe:

Eretz Yisrael: Every inch of land is Holy.
Secular Zionism: Bad, at times - evil.
Religious Zionism: Misguided
Establishment of the State of Israel: Mixed feelings. Might have been a necessary evil.
Holiness of the State of Israel: non existent.
The Flag: Zero religious significance, a symbol of a non Torah (and often, anti Torah) based political entity.
After the fact, publicly support the security needs of the State, including the IDF: Absolutely.

Not really looking to debate the merits of any of these points. Just clarifying what I believe the general mindset is.
 

[yitzgar]

Depends what you mean by "support Israel"
As I understand it, from my upbringing and from my chinuch (45+ year in Lakewood and Lakewood type yeshivos)
Lakewood, and the Yeshiva World in general believe:

Eretz Yisrael: Every inch of land is Holy.
Secular Zionism: Bad, at times - evil.
Religious Zionism: Misguided
Establishment of the State of Israel: Mixed feelings. Might have been a necessary evil.
Holiness of the State of Israel: non existent.
The Flag: Zero religious significance, a symbol of a non Torah (and often, anti Torah) based political entity.
After the fact, publicly support the security needs of the State, including the IDF: Absolutely.

Not really looking to debate the merits of any of these points. Just clarifying what I believe the general mindset is.
 

Great summary

[imayid2]

Lakewood is a big place and there are definitely “extremist” elements.

[elazarb]

Hope I'm articulating this well:

An Israeli flag as a costume in a city like Lakewood could only be assumed it's being done "ironically"*. And therefore the costume wearer is expecting to get "negative attention". Good chance that these kids screaming this are also doing it "ironically", i.e. they're just reacting in the expected manner, and they had no idea that the costumes were being worn out of respect and pride.

*ironically, meaning that while most people in Lakewood support Israel, it's not expressed in a manner of overt Zionistic patriotism. So someone wearing an Israeli flag is assumed to be doing it "as a joke".

you explained it very well, hope those that wear it with pride will understand

[aygart]

Lakewood is a big place and there are definitely “extremist” elements.

Especially when confronted by an equal and opposite extreme element

[Yehuda57]

Especially when confronted by an equal and opposite extreme element

I'm surrounded! Anyone to my left or right is an extremist

[Dawie]

I'm surrounded! Anyone to my left or right is an extremist

good thing they didn;t dress up yellow flag meshichist

[aygart]

I'm surrounded! Anyone to my left or right is an extremist

I can easily see someone who takes his display of Zionist symbols to an extreme getting confronted by those who are against such symbols

[Yehuda57]

I can easily see someone who takes his display of Zionist symbols to an extreme getting confronted by those who are against such symbols

Oh, no question. I wasn't wading into the "story" itself, which is a giant load of nothing. I didn't read the article, just the paragraphs quoted in this thread. The only thing surprising is that anyone would be surprised.

We must indict an entire neighborhood of tens of thousands of Jews based on the behaviour of a few people on Purim, of all days, responding to people wearing something they knew would be antagonistic. They could have had the article written before Purim.

good thing they didn;t dress up yellow flag meshichist

I'm sure there were plenty who did, I see such pictures from all communities every year (this year was the tunnel digging angle, and it was popular in CH too). The difference is with this no one suspects them of dressing like that in solidarity, it is obviously being done ironically.