Colin Kaepernick protest against USA

[yuneeq]

He's getting a lot of support from veterans. Many believe that his protest is exactly the freedom that they fought for...

I don't think it's right for him to do on it military appreciation night unless he's protesting the military.
The other times I considered it fine.

[puppydogs]

I don't think it's right for him to do on it military appreciation night unless he's protesting the military.
The other times I considered it fine.

I don't think its ever OK to disrespect the flag. From where I come from that's a major no-no.

[ShlockDoc]

Really? Where did you learn that? Someone took a poll? Or a few well-placed op-eds gave you that impression?

There are some op-eds about it that quote individual veterans, but also look at the grassroots on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=news&q=veterans%20for%20kaepernick&src=tyah

[ShlockDoc]

I don't think its ever OK to disrespect the flag. From where I come from that's a major no-no.

Do you come from China?

[ShlockDoc]

I don't think it's right for him to do on it military appreciation night unless he's protesting the military.
The other times I considered it fine.

Everyone's entitle to their opinion, but they're all arbitrary. That's why it's a great country that we can express them, and protest how we see fit...

[Freddie]

There are some op-eds about it that quote individual veterans, but also look at the grassroots on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=news&q=veterans%20for%20kaepernick&src=tyah

As I said, it makes an impression. In reality, it has little meaning. What percentage of veterans is this? 10%? 90% .01%? Even if it were .001% you could muster enough tweets to be too many for me to read in one sitting.

And this is exactly the same issue with the cause that CK is supporting. It's based on impressions and feelings. Kind of like the reverse of JTZ's impression that since he doesn't personally know anybody who left a kid in a car then it can't happen to normal people. Here, it's the reverse. It's happening EVERYWHERE! I saw it on Twitter!

[ShlockDoc]

As I said, it makes an impression. In reality, it has little meaning. What percentage of veterans is this? 10%? 90% .01%? Even if it were .001% you could muster enough tweets to be too many for me to read in one sitting.

And this is exactly the same issue with the cause that CK is supporting. It's based on impressions and feelings. Kind of like the reverse of JTZ's impression that since he doesn't personally know anybody who left a kid in a car then it can't happen to normal people. Here, it's the reverse. It's happening EVERYWHERE! I saw it on Twitter!

It's a representative sample.  From these tweets you can extrapolate to others, just as you can with tweets opposing his protest.  It's safe to say that he's getting support from veterans and opposition from veterans.  In other words, it's a complicated issue with no right side and no wrong side. 

[yuneeq]

Everyone's entitle to their opinion, but they're all arbitrary. That's why it's a great country that we can express them, and protest how we see fit...

I agree. That means it's legal to protest, but it doesn't mean it's right.
You don't go to a library to protest against McDonald's.

[Freddie]

It's a representative sample.  From these tweets you can extrapolate to others, just as you can with tweets opposing his protest.  It's safe to say that he's getting support from veterans and opposition from veterans.  In other words, it's a complicated issue with no right side and no wrong side.

And you just summed up the moral position that you consistently espouse on this forum.
I'm sure you're a great guy in real life but for some reason you decided that you need to be the voice of moral relativism on this forum.

[ShlockDoc]

And you just summed up the moral position that you consistently espouse on this forum.
I'm sure you're a great guy in real life but for some reason you decided that you need to be the voice of moral relativism on this forum.

Some issues are not black and white and both sides have valid points.  Is that not a concept you agree with?

[Freddie]

Some issues are not black and white and both sides have valid points.  Is that not a concept you agree with?

Like I said, I really bet you are a great guy in real life, but your on-line persona on this forum is Mr. Moral Equivalence.
Is there such a thing as "grey? Yes, but you make a shitta of it.

I hate using tired old phrases, especially about political ideology, but this is modern liberalism in a nutshell.

In Kabalistic parlance, it's called "sod eitz hadaas tairuvas tov v'ra." Our job is not to revel in the ambiguity. Our job is to use Torah to sift clarity out of ambiguity.

[aygart]

There are some op-eds about it that quote individual veterans, but also look at the grassroots on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=news&q=veterans%20for%20kaepernick&src=tyah

First of all that entire link is of people quoting articles about the twitter hashtag and barely any of actual vets. Quite meaningless.

Even the linked articles only quote support for his right to protest about which there was no argument at all. He certainly has the right to make any inappropriate protest he wishes subject to reasonable regulation as has been decided in numerous court cases. Those same protections apply to those who feel it is inappropriate for them to protest his protest or how it was done. Hence this argument is TOTALLY irrelevant.

Everyone's entitle to their opinion, but they're all arbitrary. That's why it's a great country that we can express them, and protest how we see fit...

and this is correct.

That means it's legal to protest, but it doesn't mean it's right.

I haven't even seen vets actually saying what he did was good other than some like this one

[ShlockDoc]

Like I said, I really bet you are a great guy in real life, but your on-line persona on this forum is Mr. Moral Equivalence.
Is there such a thing as "grey? Yes, but you make a shitta of it.

I hate using tired old phrases, especially about political ideology, but this is modern liberalism in a nutshell.

In Kabalistic parlance, it's called "sod eitz hadaas tairuvas tov v'ra." Our job is not to revel in the ambiguity. Our job is to use Torah to sift clarity out of ambiguity.

Why make this personal?  Let's focus on the issue.

[ShlockDoc]

First of all that entire link is of people quoting articles about the twitter hashtag and barely any of actual vets. Quite meaningless.

Even the linked articles only quote support for his right to protest about which there was no argument at all. He certainly has the right to make any inappropriate protest he wishes subject to reasonable regulation as has been decided in numerous court cases. Those same protections apply to those who feel it is inappropriate for them to protest his protest or how it was done. Hence this argument is TOTALLY irrelevant.
 and this is correct.
I haven't even seen vets actually saying what he did was good other than some like this one

Dig through the tweets with that hashtag for the last 2 days. There are dozens of vets tweeting their support. 

And that's my point. You're correct that nobody is arguing about the right. My point is that whether it's an act that is insulting to the veterans isn't black and white. Many veterans are saying that this is what they fought for.  And intend to agree with that. The kishke reaction is that he's being insulting.  But if you think about it, what makes us free is not popular speech. Unpopular, offensive speech is exactly the freedom that they've defended.

There is also no lack of veterans who disagree and are offended. I respect them as well and think Kasperwhateverhisnameis should find some way to reach out to them and do a better job explaining what he's doing and why.

[Freddie]

Why make this personal?  Let's focus on the issue.

Not trying to make this personal. I don't know you. I'm not judging your character. I'm saying that all your JS posts follow a certain consistent ideology. That's why I feel like it's you who aren't talking about the issue. You're just reiterating your same old position from another platform.

I apologize if I'm not being nice or fair. I'm not trying to offend you.

[JTZ]

Is this guy for real?
http://my.xfinity.com/articles/news-sports/20160901/FBN--49ers-Kaepernick_s.Socks/

[Menachem613]

Why make this personal?  Let's focus on the issue.

+1

[Dan]

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/439617/colin-kaepernicks-great-service-america

[aygart]

Dig through the tweets with that hashtag for the last 2 days. There are dozens of vets tweeting their support. 

And that's my point. You're correct that nobody is arguing about the right. My point is that whether it's an act that is insulting to the veterans isn't black and white. Many veterans are saying that this is what they fought for.  And intend to agree with that. The kishke reaction is that he's being insulting.  But if you think about it, what makes us free is not popular speech. Unpopular, offensive speech is exactly the freedom that they've defended.

There is also no lack of veterans who disagree and are offended. I respect them as well and think Kasperwhateverhisnameis should find some way to reach out to them and do a better job explaining what he's doing and why.

Those same vets who are offended also agree that his and everyone else's right is what they fought to defend. What does that have to do with whether or not he is a piece of garbage for doing it? I also agree he has the right to be a piece of garbage.

[Freddie]

+1

I don't think that's what "personal" means.

Personal means using details about someone's private life to make them look bad instead of arguing the issue. What I am doing is pointing out how one person expresses a consistent ideology represented across many conversations. If someone predictably pushes the same agenda on every issue, is it a personal attack to point that out? I'm not talking about HIM. I'm talking about his OPINIONS. We're allowed to argue against OPINIONS without being accused of besmirching PEOPLE.

Just my humble opinion. You may think I'm wrong. I won't take it personally.