Author Topic: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...  (Read 72897 times)

Offline AsherO

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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #120 on: August 20, 2012, 03:29:29 PM »
A mumer?

I don't think we have those these days:

Oh and for the record the Chazon Ish holds since non religious Jews nowadays are all Tinkos Shenshbo,
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Offline Dan

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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #121 on: August 20, 2012, 04:05:48 PM »
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2015180849_apuswhyfaresarehigher.html
Which all proves my point.
High fixed costs, very low incremental cost to fly someone.  Thats the beauty of miles for the airlines and why it's so unbelievably profitable.

-Fuel-Almost entirely fixed with a teeny tiny percentage variable for your weight.
-Salaries-Fixed.
-Maintenance-Fixed.
-Aircraft lease payments-Fixed.
-Food and drinks: You can argue, maybe, that the food is a variable cost.  Probably under $5 though. Drinks though are likely fixed.
-In-flight entertainment: Fixed.
-Updating reservation systems and marketing partnerships with other airlines: Fixed.

The only cost is if it's a sold out flight and they could've sold more seats.  Given that this is in the low winter season that will be a small part of the tickets sold.
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Offline Jkhein

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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #122 on: August 20, 2012, 04:08:47 PM »
AIRPORT TAXES?? You are avoiding that one.

Offline rots5

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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #123 on: August 20, 2012, 04:09:57 PM »
Which all proves my point.
High fixed costs, very low incremental cost to fly someone.  Thats the beauty of miles for the airlines and why it's so unbelievably profitable.

-Fuel-Almost entirely fixed with a teeny tiny percentage variable for your weight.
-Salaries-Fixed.
-Maintenance-Fixed.
-Aircraft lease payments-Fixed.
-Food and drinks: You can argue, maybe, that the food is a variable cost.  Probably under $5 though. Drinks though are likely fixed.
-In-flight entertainment: Fixed.
-Updating reservation systems and marketing partnerships with other airlines: Fixed.

The only cost is if it's a sold out flight and they could've sold more seats.  Given that this is in the low winter season that will be a small part of the tickets sold.
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Offline Q274

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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #124 on: August 20, 2012, 04:10:27 PM »
I heard from someone- that elal really brought this whole thing upon themselves- meaning it might have been an issue of oinah in theory (meaning jewish company enough, and "price mistake") BUT if u ask them they will tell you that a ticket to israel really only cost $300 (or so) but there are taxes and fees.AND it aint so pashut that the issur oonah applies to taxes and fees.
"normal pricing sparked a number of Halachic Shailos posed to Rabbis as to whether there is an obligation to reverse the sale, since it was due to a mistake.
El Al has caught on to the error and fixed it, but in the meanwhile many people were able to take advantage of the error and purchase tickets.
Was it permitted to take advantage of this error?
Are those who purchased tickets obligated to offer to return them to El Al?
In general, once one knows that an item is obviously miss-priced, is one allowed to take advantage of that error and purchase additional items, knowing that the vendor will either not know about it or will be compelled by law to honor the price?
If I see that a vending machine says that a can of soda is priced at $1.25 and dispenses a can after I put in $.25, am I allowed to put in more quarters so that I can buy more cans? (Even if we assume that I do not have to return the first can, where I had intended to pay full price, does that mean that now that I know that the machine is miss-programmed that I can buy as many more as I like?
ANSWER:
GENERAL CONCEPT OF ONAAH
We do find a concept in Halacha called Onaas Mamon.  This concept, found in chapter 227 of the Choshain Mishpat section of the Shulchan Aruch, invalidates a sale when the price is either 16.7 % above or below the market value of the item.  Although landed properties would be excluded from this law, it does apply both to movable properties as well intangibles, such as a ticket.
DEBATE BETWEEN BAIS YOSEPH AND SHACH
The halachic authorities debate as to whether the law is applicable when there exists a range of prices and no set market value (See Bais Yoseph CM 209 who says there is no Onaah in such cases while the Bach and Shach state that there is, nonetheless).  At first glance, it may seem that even though secular law may dictate that the sale is valid (we will find out if this is true shortly), there may be an halachic obligation to undo the sale.  Rav Vosner in Shaivet HaLevi Vol. V # 218 concludes that there is Onaah when there is no set price in the market, in accordance with the aforementioned Shach and Bach.
The way airlines price tickets though, deserves a bit of scrutiny.  A certain percentage of tickets are set aside to sell at a certain price.  Another percentage are sold at a higher price.  The system is continued until the very last tickets are sold at a very high price.  One could argue that this pricing structure in and of itself knocks out airline tickets from falling under the category of Onaah, and this, in fact, is the position of a number of Poskim.
THE NOTION OF KIM LI TO RULE LIKE BAIS YOSEPH
There is also an important concept called “Kim Li k’hanee Poskim” which in essence states that,when holding on to the moneys or items already (Muchzak) a person has the right to say, “I know that the law is in accordance with the Poskim that hold X (See Beis Shmuel CM 68:19).”  In this case, the purchasers of the Dan’s Deals can say that, in their view, the law is in accordance with the Beis Yoseph.”  While one cannot utilize this principle before one has the bought ticket in hand in order to permit the purchase, after one has done so there is no obligation to undo the deal.
OTHER FACTOR TO SAY NO ONAAH
There is another argument, although perhaps not a strong one, that the laws of Onaah do not apply in this case.  Rabbi Yoseph Shaul Nathanson, author of the Shoel UMaishiv (Edition IV 3:137) rules that something sold publicly in an auction is not subject to the laws of Onaah.  A website would probably have the same status on account of the public nature of the sale (see his arguments in the responsa to understand the correlation).

BUT WHEN THERE IS A GENUINE ERROR
While there may be great debate as to whether there is or there isn’t a notion of Onaah where there are no set prices and no official market price, some authorities are of the position that it doesn’t matter, and when there is a mistake in the pricing – it is to be considered Onaah –regardless (See, for example, Pischei Choshain Vol. IV p. 300 paragraph 4 “Uv’chol haOfanim.”)  This last point would negate both of the above arguments.
IS THIS PART OF THE PRICE?
There is a third factor, however, which may be very pertinent here.  If one looks closely at this particular sale, the price of the ticket was not, in fact, below market.  The reason why the total cost of the ticket was so much lower than usual was the fact that the fuel surcharges were not included in the pricing. When someone does not charge an additional fee that is not part of the sale, but rather is construed as an extraneous cost, not charging it would not negate the sale (See Responsa of the Rosh 13:20 for a similar issue).
The situation may be analogous to a store that charges an entrance fee and then makes sales.  If the store owner appointed a person who did not collect the entrance fee and the person did not sneak in, there would be no obligation for the purchaser of the item to pay that entrance fee.
While some may argue that the fuel surcharge is an accounting device, the fact is that technically it appears to be legally construed as an extraneous fee.
Why do they charge these surcharges?  Travel experts list a number of reasons:
1] So they can charge travelers for allegedly “free” frequent flier awards and companion tickets with part of the fare.
2] To make their fares appear much lower than they really are.
3] So they can lower the fare basis on which they pay commissions to travel agents.
4] So they can circumvent the law and raise the fares on routes where fare increases still need some sort of outside approval.
In the United States itself, domestic carriers are not allowed to have these two separate fees, but international carriers are allowed to do so It is this author’s view, the fact that it is technically not part of the sale itself, has implications both ways too – and one would not be forced to undo the deal from a halachic perspective.
The case of the vending machine would be very different because the moneys placed in the machine facilitate the sale of the item itself.  It would be forbidden to take advantage of that situation, where the machine is giving drinks for 25 cents instead of the regular cost."

Offline Dan

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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #125 on: August 20, 2012, 04:13:03 PM »
AIRPORT TAXES?? You are avoiding that one.
Airport taxes were charged on these tickets and they are minimal.

September 11th Security Fee:     $2.50
Israel Departure Tax: $25.10
U.S. Customs User Fee: $5.50
U.S. Immigration User Fee: $7.00
U.S. APHIS User Fee: $5.00

Anyway these were included, so why is that relevant?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 04:16:15 PM by Dan »
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Offline Dan

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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #126 on: August 20, 2012, 04:15:16 PM »
As far as the fuel surcharge which is indeed one big scam having nothing to do with the cost of fuel.

-Domestic airlines do have them (it helps them evade some government taxes FWIU) on paid fares and some award tickets.  They just can't advertise a ticket without including all taxes and fees.
-They are not an integral part of the El Al ticket. V'horayeh that you can use AA miles to travel on El Al with no fuel surcharge component.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #127 on: August 20, 2012, 04:17:58 PM »
I heard from someone who was at this shiur (a Chabura in Monsey), and he said that the Rabbi is well aware of the points which Dan made, and still stands by his P'sak, and Hashkafa.
I'd love it if the Rabbi or someone in his stead would clue us in as to why each of the objections people have raised in this thread do not apply and how L"H b'rabim is justified.
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Offline Q274

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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #128 on: August 20, 2012, 04:19:28 PM »
Hey: how do u know he is talking abt you? I also tweeted the deal :-)

Offline Dan

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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #129 on: August 20, 2012, 04:22:13 PM »
Hey: how do u know he is talking abt you? I also tweeted the deal :-)
If you listen there's only one person who he's obviously talking about and who everyone in the room knows exactly who he's talking about.
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Offline Q274

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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #130 on: August 20, 2012, 04:26:05 PM »
@dan- I know that I highly doubt my 3 followers (who prob don't even read them) is what caused the raucous

Offline DH Data Recovery

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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #131 on: August 20, 2012, 04:39:28 PM »
isn't airfare prices oinah? when they charge $1800 to israel in the busy seasons???

Offline rots5

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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #132 on: August 20, 2012, 04:42:27 PM »
my question to all this is what would howard say about this one  ;D ;D lol
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #133 on: August 20, 2012, 04:49:33 PM »
The only cost is if it's a sold out flight and they could've sold more seats.  Given that this is in the low winter season that will be a small part of the tickets sold.

I'm on your side of this debate, but even you will agree with me that of the ~5,000 tickets sold there was a disproportionate amount booked for Chanukah season (and possibly other peak/holiday dates) as opposed to an even distribution among all available dates.

isn't airfare prices oinah?

I could make some jokes on the matter, but I think some people on this forum would find them to be distasteful...

I think you mean Oina'ah.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 04:54:04 PM by AsherO »
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Offline Saver2000

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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #134 on: August 20, 2012, 04:50:33 PM »
isn't airfare prices oinah? when they charge $1800 to israel in the busy seasons???
That is meaningless in this discussion

Offline rots5

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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #135 on: August 20, 2012, 05:00:45 PM »


just hung from a rav, and he did not want to give me a psak since i didnt buy tickets, but he said there def can be an issue of onah even on fuel charges, BUT he did say there is a huge tzad heter bec they are non frum, and therefore basically all bets are off,
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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #136 on: August 20, 2012, 05:31:56 PM »
On what is based the non-frum heter?
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Offline rots5

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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #137 on: August 20, 2012, 05:42:03 PM »
On what is based the non-frum heter?

similar to a goy. he said obviously its not simple and much more complex but he said in short thats a heter would have to work with if there was a heter at all
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #138 on: August 20, 2012, 05:48:22 PM »
similar to a goy. he said obviously its not simple and much more complex but he said in short thats a heter would have to work with if there was a heter at all

:o :'(
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Offline Q274

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Re: Rabbi Marburger Calls Me Out...
« Reply #139 on: August 20, 2012, 05:57:04 PM »
just hung from a rav, and he did not want to give me a psak since i didnt buy tickets, but he said there def can be an issue of onah even on fuel charges, BUT he did say there is a huge tzad heter bec they are non frum, and therefore basically all bets are off,
did he refute this:
There is a third factor, however, which may be very pertinent here.  If one looks closely at this particular sale, the price of the ticket was not, in fact, below market.  The reason why the total cost of the ticket was so much lower than usual was the fact that the fuel surcharges were not included in the pricing. When someone does not charge an additional fee that is not part of the sale, but rather is construed as an extraneous cost, not charging it would not negate the sale (See Responsa of the Rosh 13:20 for a similar issue).

or he just "said" seems like a lot of "talk" but very little quoting (just saying)