How should schools and parents deal with tuition?

[yesitsme]

Please post the update

https://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/COVID19-Batei-Din-Playgroups-Part-II-1.pdf

[good sam]

I don't understand the legal argument to obligate the consumer to pay. I could have a 10 year contract, if the vendor is unable to provide the service then the consumer is not obligated to pay, period (unless the contract explicitly states that this particular risk is assumed by the consumer, which would be very unusual).

If the school or playgroup is offering a modified service through zoom or phone conferences, I agree this is a question for a beis din.

Sure, whoever is able should continue to pay so the teachers and rebbes can get paid, but that's from maaser and with a tax receipt and only to the extent one is able.

[Lurker]

I don't understand the legal argument to obligate the consumer to pay. I could have a 10 year contract, if the vendor is unable to provide the service then the consumer is not obligated to pay, period (unless the contract explicitly states that this particular risk is assumed by the consumer, which would be very unusual).

If the school or playgroup is offering a modified service through zoom or phone conferences, I agree this is a question for a beis din.

Sure, whoever is able should continue to pay so the teachers and rebbes can get paid, but that's from maaser and with a tax receipt and only to the extent one is able.

Very often tuition contracts are structured as a one-time fee due at the beginning of the year, and it is non-refundable under any circumstances. They will then allow parents to make monthly payments to pay off the balance owed. Taking your child out of school doesn't entitle you to a refund. The argument can be made that force majeure releases the school from having to fulfill the rest of the contract without giving a refund.

[good sam]

Very often tuition contracts are structured as a one-time fee due at the beginning of the year, and it is non-refundable under any circumstances. They will then allow parents to make monthly payments to pay off the balance owed. Taking your child out of school doesn't entitle you to a refund. The argument can be made that force majeure releases the school from having to fulfill the rest of the contract without giving a refund.

Who on earth would sign such a contract? My tuition contract certainly doesn't say that.

Force majeure is a vendor's risk, not consumer. I could not imagine any just legal system requiring a buyer to pay for goods or services it hasn't received, unless a contract expressly provides for the consumer's assumption of risk.

[knowitall]

I think the tuition discussion isn't really about a company, or vendor vs. a consumer.
The discussion points are more along the lines of makkas medina, the chasam sofer/rema, paying a melamed, parent's ownership in the school...
It's not clear if schools are a fee for service or something else.

I don't know much halacha regarding these topics, (the headlines podcast covered some btw) but I am overall pretty shocked:
1) The schools overall took it for granted that tuition should continue to be paid in full
2) The relative lack of clear and public rabbinic guidance here
3) The lack of parents expressing their dissatisfaction 

That being said, parents and schools are usually trying to accomplish a shared goal- educating your child. And when a parent isn't happy, they usually keep quiet as fighting a school is like fighting city hall.

[reed]

I haven’t even tried with my kids schools - I know the answer will be HELL NO. I consider the administrator of my kids Yeshiva a Rashah who is personally responsible from keeping Yiddish neshamas being brought into this world because of parents afraid of paying more obscene tuition costs and the absolute humiliation and degradation one must go through to even being considered for a discount - which never is granted if you have a decent job. They just take it all.

Problem is multiplied when when the Board consists of gvirim and today ever increasingly it’s populated by trust fund babies who never had to worry about money a day in their lives and whose parents set up foundations to pay the tuition for all the einklich.

[12HRS]

Nebach

[yos9694]

I don't know much halacha regarding these topics, (the headlines podcast covered some btw) but I am overall pretty shocked:
1) The schools overall took it for granted that tuition should continue to be paid in full
2) The relative lack of clear and public rabbinic guidance here
3) The lack of parents expressing their dissatisfaction 

1) Is a fact. The lingering question is if they were simply too nogeia badavar to see any side of the coin except their own, or if they simply don't believe in putting emes v'yashrus ahead of money

2) I believe this is because it is very difficult to halachicly justify what the schools are doing, and no rabbonim are going to publish anything that says the schools are wrong

3) Parents are at the mercy of the schools (especially in a place like lakewood) and can't take the risk of opposing them

[aygart]

I haven’t even tried with my kids schools - I know the answer will be HELL NO. I consider the administrator of my kids Yeshiva a Rashah who is personally responsible from keeping Yiddish neshamas being brought into this world because of parents afraid of paying more obscene tuition costs and the absolute humiliation and degradation one must go through to even being considered for a discount - which never is granted if you have a decent job. They just take it all.

Problem is multiplied when when the Board consists of gvirim and today ever increasingly it’s populated by trust fund babies who never had to worry about money a day in their lives and whose parents set up foundations to pay the tuition for all the einklich.

Maybe you should consider a different school?

[reed]

Maybe you should consider a different school?

Unfortunately I haven’t heard it any better in other boys schools in 5 towns/far rock tho I’m sure ppl will come out and say they had other experiences.

[Sammy82]

Unfortunately I haven’t heard it any better in other boys schools in 5 towns/far rock tho I’m sure ppl will come out and say they had other experiences.

IDK
My personal experience with my son's school (and daughter's school) has been absolutely nothing but a pleasure. Always gave me the break I needed and asked for.
(As a side, I ALWAYS make sure to contribute whatever I could at the moment when they have any of their fundraisers)

[Shmobaum]

I emailed two main batei dinim in Lakewood last night. Will update if/when they reply

[aygart]

Unfortunately I haven’t heard it any better in other boys schools in 5 towns/far rock tho I’m sure ppl will come out and say they had other experiences.

I feel bad for you that you feel this way.

[israshot]

Find your yeshiva.
https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ope/allocationsforsection18004a1ofcaresact.pdf

[skyguy918]

Find your yeshiva.
https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ope/allocationsforsection18004a1ofcaresact.pdf

This is for post high school, no?

[israshot]

This is for post high school, no?

Yes.
That the only thread I found relevant to post.

[ari3]

My brother asked Rabbi Chaim M Roth from Lakewood a highly respected choshen mishpat Rav and he said the we should continue to pay.

Did he ask if he should pay or if he is obligated to pay? There is a big difference.

If you are happy with your school and you want them to stay solvent, if you feel that generally they have been fair with you, if you think they are doing what they can under the circumstances, or even if you hate them but fear some sort of retribution then you should pay even if you may halachically have grounds not to pay the full tuition obligation.

Although some of the school expenses are lower now fundraising revenue has most likely dried up to zero.

[zale]

I am overall pretty shocked:
1) The schools overall took it for granted that tuition should continue to be paid in full
2) The relative lack of clear and public rabbinic guidance here
3) The lack of parents expressing their dissatisfaction 

1) The schools are hoping that parents will continue to pay by default, and they will deal individually with the parents who complain. They are counting on not having to deal with a “class action” from the parents, which is why now more than ever the parent body must put up a united front.
2) Same as above, Rabbanim are hoping that they will only have to answer specific parents and not the whole community at once.
3) Parents are expressing dissatisfaction, but individually. Parents need to unify on this matter. They need to address the school as a unified group and demand certain concessions from the school. (Some parents will of course not want to be a part of it and believe that everyone should pay, but they are in the minority and that’s ok.). I suggested upthread that a possible fair arrangement is a credit toward next year’s tuition. A 20-30% is also fair under these circumstances.

[12HRS]

(Some parents will of course not want to be a part of it and believe that everyone should pay, but they are in the minority and that’s ok.)

How do you know?

[zale]

How do you know?

I don’t. It’s an assumption. Logically people don’t want to pay for products and services they are not receiving.