Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?

[pbf]

Anyone has popcorn?

Ech everyone relax. Most people that yell and scream have 5 minutes of dating experience and no actual idea what they’re talking about

[Dan]

How smoothly conversation flows in a first date is as irrelevant as how well the guy's car drives. It makes things more convenient, but it should be completely irrelevant when deciding whether something has any potential.

And yet, people end dates all the time over little things like that.

[Dan]

TY for posting this. People need to understand this middle of the road perspective and stop trying to be riteous on everyone else's behalf.

We already have 1 DDF shidduch. We're due for another

[pbf]

Or maybe people are smart and understand that there are some people who, for one of a multitude of reasons, are not going to get a yes from most other people. It doesn't do you any good to get suggested to people who are never going to go out with you in the first place. I'll agree that there are many people stuck into that box who, in reality  aren't that way and that's a big problem, but to think that it's never true is just being niave. Is it true that some shadchanim basically only see your one major, glaring flaw? Sure, but remember, those same people also see a "regular" person as just a list of where they went to school, grew up, etc. It's essentially the same thing, the only difference is, one kind of person has a much easier time getting married than the other but that's not necessarily the fault of the shadchan. Remember, for ever suggestion that you get offended at, there's someone out there who would be equally as offended by getting you as a suggestion.

This.

Everyone gets put in a box regardless of their circumstance 

[yelped]

We already have 1 DDF shidduch. We're due for another

[pbf]

We already have 1 DDF shidduch. We're due for another

Or we’re just the only ones actually in the circumstance so we agree...

[coffeebean]

We already have 1 DDF shidduch. We're due for another

We first need to solve the major shidduch crisis we have over here. The male/female ratio is not looking great.

[drosenberg88429]

And yet, people ends dates all the time over little things like that.

So everyone agrees with each other.

Lack of chemistry and attraction and stilted conversation and dull personality are not reasons to say no to a second date.

Clear incompatibilities are.

It's not a 100% blanket rule that you should always say yes to a second date, just like it's not a 100% rule that you should always say yes to a first date.

That being said, many people are too hasty and impulsive in writing something off without giving it a fair shot.

I'm glad this was clarified.

Like every good JS discussion, we're pitting absolutes against generalities.

[mmgfarb]

Lack of chemistry and attraction and stilted conversation and dull personality are not reasons to say no to a second date.

.

This post makes me think you've never been on a date before, lol. You honestly think that there's a reason to keep going out if you're not attracted to them, you had nothing to talk about, you found them boring, and have nothing in common other than perhaps some shared values (on paper anyway.) I have a gemara about a certain king I think you should learn...

[drosenberg88429]

Also, is it appropriate for a boy and girl to go on a date for any reason other than considering marriage? I wonder if the Rebbi's reasoning was a teretz, and his real reasoning was that someone who was sure it is a no might change their mind after a second date.

@avromie7 , was this advice given specifically to you, or was this general advice that he gives to bochurim?

Yes. A million times yes.

The same way you wouldn't end a date after 5 minutes due to "tznius concerns" if you think you're not going to marry each other, and it would be egregiously inappropriate to do so, you can go on a date even knowing that it's not going to lead to marriage, assuming it is deemed necessary to spare someone's feelings. The shidduch was commenced with marriage in mind. Now that it was commenced, there is an obligation to conduct ones self like a mentch and do their utmost to minimize causing pain to someone else throughout the process. The same way agreeing to a date is agreeing to a couple of hours, it's also effectively agreeing to two dates. Refusing to do so because of tznius concerns is arguably being a chossid shotah.

[coffeebean]

you had nothing to talk about, you found them boring, and have nothing in common

First dates can be deceiving

[mmgfarb]

First dates can be deceiving

Oh, give me a break. Yea, sure, there's definitely a lot that's hard to tell from a first date but to think that someone is inherently incapable of understanding enough about someone to know that they will not be marrying them after spending a few hours with them is asinine. I'll agree that in a situation where you like some things about them but the date just didn't go well, you should go out again, but to say you always have to go out twice is ridiculous.

[drosenberg88429]

This post makes me think you've never been on a date before, lol. You honestly think that there's a reason to keep going out if you're not attracted to them, you had nothing to talk about, you found them boring, and have nothing in common other than perhaps some shared values (on paper anyway.) I have a gemara about a certain king I think you should learn...

A) I think you're referring to a certain queen. Otherwise, jog my memory.

B) Yes, clarifying that you have shared goals and values and visions and hashkafos and worldviews and no glaring incompatibilities may not be enough reason to get married, but it should be enough reason to say yes to a second date. People are sometimes tired, nervous, under the weather, or just take time to warm up. Chemistry and sparks take time to develop as you get to know the person, as does attraction. (Note that there is a marked difference between lack of attraction and repulsion.) Marrying them if these things never develop would quite possibly be a disastrous move, but instantly writing them off can also be.

C) Thanks for calling my dating experience into question. Trust me, I've been on my fair share of DOA dates. As the saying goes "Sometimes you meet someone and know from the first moment that you want to spend your life apart from them".

[Something Fishy]

OTOH I'm sure most if not all of them are not the same person they were 10 years prior. Perhaps they originally gave it a chance but only became more compatible later on.

Reminds me of the guy who got divorced and then remarried her a few years later. When asked what changed, he said "nu, for a second marriage she's not bad".

[Shmulie]

It’s the other way around, people are prejudiced because they haven’t bothered to date anyone “like that”, it would be an eye opener.

This is quickly turning into the Shidduch Crisis Master Thread, so I’ll tell you. Too much of the crisis is because marriage and relationships are so personal and each unique in their dynamic, yet when it comes to shidduchim the masses are all into one-size-fits-all cookie cutter rules, guidelines, and classifications. Every pot has its cover, and if we started looking at people as human beings instead of measuring them up like stats on a baseball card, we’d get a lot further.

/rant

I think one of the problems is that "being a Shadchan" has become too much of a business and less about the Mitzva and when it's a business you focus on and spend most of your time on the easiest most cookie cutter shidduchim and naturally that leaves less time for the people who don't fit in to that box so those people are left on the wayside to either be forgotten about or matched up based on silly "faults".

I'm not faulting Shadchan's for this it's just how business works if you want to make a living and be successful.

[drosenberg88429]

This.

Everyone gets put in a box regardless of their circumstance

As they say, after 120, we all get put in a box...

(I know that's not even accurate.)

Reminds me of the guy who got divorced and then remarried her a few years later. When asked what changed, he said "nu, for a second marriage she's not bad".

One of the most important life tenets I've ever heard.

Always consider the likely alternative before discarding the current option. Will you really be better off?

[Lurker]

I think one of the problems is that "being a Shadchan" has become too much of a volume business, so they throw as many names at as many people as they can, hoping some stick before they move on to the next batch.

FTFY

[Something Fishy]

I've been asked for a full body picture

Wow. That's beyond the pale.

If the girl won't provide a picture, someone will and it will likely be a less flattering shot.

Very important point that I think got a bit buried among all the others. And Exhibit A on why this 30-day thing is mostly useless.

[Shmulie]

FTFY

True...

[Shmulie]

We first need to solve the major shidduch crisis we have over here. The male/female ratio is not looking great.

Honestly what is the actual ratio?