Author Topic: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel  (Read 65761 times)

Offline gozalim

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #520 on: May 21, 2021, 03:45:10 PM »
Somebody I respect a lot calls himself a חסיד שוטה of facts  :)
i'm not talking about facts, (some here argue that those aren't your strong point).
I'm talking about hashkafos of your rebbeim

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #521 on: May 23, 2021, 07:01:04 PM »
https://twitter.com/yarahawari/status/1396396025166848003

BH for Oslo

Two excellent threads about the legal and political intricities of the real estate dispute in Sheik Jarah that contributed to the beginning of this round and is still unresolved (pending a Supreme Court appeal):

https://twitter.com/nirhasson/status/1395811210268921860
« Last Edit: May 23, 2021, 07:14:40 PM by PlatinumGuy »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

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״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline m65

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #523 on: May 23, 2021, 07:23:51 PM »

BH for Oslo

im glad you are happy.
i for one, visited kever yosef this morning @5 a.m. and found it locked as usual with 2 palestinian cops standing guard so that no jews can enter.
i hope u feel good about that as well

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #524 on: May 23, 2021, 07:26:01 PM »


im glad you are happy.
i for one, visited kever yosef this morning @5 a.m. and found it locked as usual with 2 palestinian cops standing guard so that no jews can enter.
i hope u feel good about that as well
I actually do, I'm surprised you don't realize that.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline m65

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #525 on: May 23, 2021, 07:32:10 PM »

I actually do, I'm surprised you don't realize that.
i realize it well.
u should divide up your posts, sometimes im dying to like a half of post, but the trash u put in the other half just wont let me. this post is a perfect example.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #526 on: May 23, 2021, 07:35:59 PM »
i realize it well.
u should divide up your posts, sometimes im dying to like a half of post, but the trash u put in the other half just wont let me. this post is a perfect example.
If I was pursuing likes, I would change my approach more dramatically than that...

What do I wish is that we had a scoreboard of all the factual arguments you unarguably lost to me. Maybe at a certain mass you'd start realizing some of the things you are so convinced about aren't always 100% correct, as I do about my perceptions. 
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline m65

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #527 on: May 23, 2021, 07:40:50 PM »
What do I wish is that we had a scoreboard of all the factual arguments you unarguably lost to me.
such has never happened even once

Offline yos9694

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #528 on: May 24, 2021, 08:12:15 AM »
If I was pursuing likes, I would change my approach more dramatically than that...

I'd say you are pursuing "yikes"

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #529 on: May 24, 2021, 08:21:39 AM »
such has never happened even once
That's exactly the problem. It happens all the time but you are so incredibly convinced of your beliefs that no matter how much evidence to the contrary is presented, you can't be swayed. Unlike you, every position of mine is subject to modification if presented with enough evidence. When you come with that approach, you realize that a lot of things we take for granted (like Jews are always right and Arabs are always evil) aren't always 100% so, and your positions gradually become more aligned with the truth, as opposed to what you were fed as a child and shared by 90%+ of your environment without ever scrutinizing fairly.

Here are 3 recent times that come to mind:

1)


Please explain to us how exactly דרישה וחקירה would 'knock out' an honest testimony of a single witness? Never mind 99% of them.

It can only void witnesses who contradict each other. That's besides the fact דרישה וחקירה is probably not needed, although there is very little resources on the topic so I probably won't be able to prove it absolutely.

If you aren't willing to walk back a statement even after you know it's wrong, how can anybody respect anything you say?

2)
if the torah says to do it then there is nothing to be embarrassed of

Chilul hashem applies to (some) things perceived by non-Jews as wrong even if the Torah says to do them, and I can prove it.

(Toisfos is conclusive, the others are illustrative)
....
תוספות על גיטין מ״ו א:ז׳:א׳

לר' יהודה איך הניחום בארץ הכתיב (שמות כ״ג:ל״ג) לא ישבו בארצך וגו' והוה ליה נשבע לבטל את המצוה וע"כ משום חילול השם הוא

3)
If you accept that the victor of a war can void previous ownership of land and award it as they wish, the rightful owners are those accepted by the Jordanian victors.

if u accept that then  the current israeli victors are the rightful owners

The current Arab residents in East Jerusalem are Israeli nationals. They are protectorates of the winning power just as much as the Jews attempting to evict them.

jews and arabs are not equal under israeli law.
as much as we try painting a picture that they are. they are not.
we dont consider them equal, neither do they consider themselves as such.
they dont have any right of return laws

....
there are no budgets for "arabizing" the north or south.
the list is endless

they are merely tolerated here because of the lack of ability/will to get rid of them
those trying to evict them are not doing so as part of a personal legal financial battle, but are doing so bec they believe it is in the good of the state
if they are protected by the winning power it is not bec they are part of the winning power, but bec the winning power didnt win hard enough.

these are all facts

every zionist knows and feels this way, even if he will vehemently scream and yell that they are false.

Again, nobody said it's illegal or not right. The point which you attempted to dispute is that from an Arab point of view it's unfair. I'm happy you conceded that argument and shifted to showing other instances where Israeli law discriminates against Arabs.



This is the kind of scoreboard I wish we had.
Maybe at a certain mass you'd start realizing some of the things you are so convinced about aren't always 100% correct, as I do about my perceptions. 

It's actually quite amazing that you literally believe you are always 100% right. I don't think I know a single other person like that.
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #530 on: May 24, 2021, 08:27:36 AM »
https://twitter.com/bar_peleg/status/1396740510153416704

I don't remember ever seeing an Israeli Arab speak so brazenly on Israeli media about attacking Jews. BH he's been arrested and charged with incitement. 
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline AsherO

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #531 on: May 24, 2021, 09:28:25 AM »
BH for Oslo

Pass, we’d be better off without it IMHO.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #532 on: May 24, 2021, 09:30:55 AM »
Pass, we’d be better off without it IMHO.
Should we have stayed in Lebanon too? 

https://twitter.com/LittleMoiz/status/1396723710569197568
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline gozalim

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #533 on: May 24, 2021, 09:37:24 AM »
Should we have stayed in Lebanon too? 

https://twitter.com/LittleMoiz/status/1396723710569197568
jury still out on that one too, considering a wise man here once claimed that hezbollah capabilities approach 'existential threat'.

What they should have done its put on the big boy pants when they went in there decades earlier...

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #534 on: May 24, 2021, 09:44:42 AM »
jury still out on that one too, considering a wise man here once claimed that hezbollah capabilities approach 'existential threat'.
I agree with that sentiment about Gaza, but not about Hezbollah. Even if Israel would control Lebanon, it only pushes the line back that much. Hezbollah and other Iranian proxies have long enough range missiles and UAVs to threaten Israel from North Lebanon, Syria, and possibly even Iran.


Jewish sovereignty over the territory is completely irrelevant to me and my Rebbeim (unlike many of the residents who were willing to risk their lives for the ideal), and the residents were well compensated.

So the only question is strategic. To date, seceding from Gaza saved lives more than it cost, and nobody reasonable disputes that. The issue is Hamas is progressively becoming powerful, and it's possible in the long run the price will become heavier. On the other hand, you can't blame all of that on the original secession - nobody is stopping Israel for going right back militarily.

Protecting Gush Katif cost many soldiers lives every year without fail. I'm happy for the lives spared and hope it won't cost other lives.

Although I don't know which position is correct, I think I have a decent understanding of both sides, and ultimately I trust the judgement of Sharon and Netanyahu as the best suited to make the judgement call, so I support it.

Hope I answered your question.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline m65

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #535 on: May 24, 2021, 11:59:18 AM »

It's actually quite amazing that you literally believe you are always 100% right. I don't think I know a single other person like that.
i dont think im right 100% of the time, its only when i argue with u ;)
(thats prob why i enjoy it so much)

im gonna get to answering your arguments tonite bli neder. most of them im seeing now for the first time. sorry that things move fast here

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #536 on: May 24, 2021, 12:21:27 PM »
I agree with that sentiment about Gaza, but not about Hezbollah. Even if Israel would control Lebanon, it only pushes the line back that much. Hezbollah and other Iranian proxies have long enough range missiles and UAVs to threaten Israel from North Lebanon, Syria, and possibly even Iran.

Which is why the Iranians don't care about setting up the proxy in Southern Lebanon, they simply don't need it.  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline AsherO

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #537 on: May 26, 2021, 06:50:18 AM »
Should we have stayed in Lebanon too? 

When it comes to foreign capitals I’m all for land-for-peace.

We should have taken Cairo, Damascus, Beirut, and Amman in 1967 (or whenever they attacked us and we had the chance to) and given them back their land in exchange for peace.

You and I won’t see eye to eye on this, but you did ask so I’m answering.
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Offline m65

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #538 on: May 26, 2021, 11:50:40 AM »
im gonna get to answering your arguments tonite bli neder. most of them im seeing now for the first time. sorry that things move fast here
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=124662.msg2450710#msg2450710

i posted my reply in the wars of israel thread

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Geopolitics and Wars of Israel
« Reply #539 on: May 27, 2021, 06:28:35 AM »
When it comes to foreign capitals I’m all for land-for-peace.
You realize that many opinions consider South Lebanon Eretz Yisroel? Certainly more so than Yamit in Sinai that was given to the Egyptians and caused a major uproar?

What makes Lebanon more of a 'foreign capital' than Gaza?
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים