Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken

[dasmo801]

We live in an obviously flawed world, but I (personally) wouldn't necessarily extrapolate from this specific situation to every situation.

I'm really trying to understand the argument. They had one job - to design and implement a foolproof system to ensure with 100% certainty that the food that I was eating was kosher. They failed. On what basis can I continue to rely on their hashgocha, absent verifiable changes to said system?

[aygart]

I know him. He has his "perks". Take his opinions with a grain of salt, look into it and decide for yourself, but he doesn't make up facts.

NME

[imayid2]

The most the Hechsher can testify about is that they ensured conjuring under which you can assume it is kosher.

This would seem to negate RRF’s whole argument.

[avromie7]

Because you aren’t rejecting נאמנות. You’re suspecting incompetence. Who cares what that suspicion is based on?

The torah wants us to trust people. It doesn't matter what you're suspecting, you are not trusting him.

[imayid2]

The torah wants us to trust people.

When they testify they know with certainty this is kosher.

[Lurker]

Wouldn’t that cause a conflict of interests?

It's an argument that has been made... The counter argument is made that the hashgacha offers their mashgichim paid leave if they are fired because they report an issue, and also get them a job somewhere else. I'm not sold on it being a fool-proof system.

At the end of the day, hashgacha comes down to a lot of trust. You wouldn't put your life's savings blindly into the hands of anyone who claims competence. If you value your yiddishkeit more than your money, you should do just as much research into the hashgachos that you trust.

[Lurker]

It does become that, especially when the Mashgiach gets a really good wage and can’t quickly/easily find another employer paying that. I never understood why the Mashgichim aren’t paid by the agency, maybe it has to do with payroll logistics/legalities.

The unemployment and workers comp liabilities, in addition to payroll/admin expenses are prohibitive. There is no real perfect solution.

[AsherO]

I'm really trying to understand the argument. They had one job - to design and implement a foolproof system to ensure with 100% certainty that the food that I was eating was kosher. They failed. On what basis can I continue to rely on their hashgocha, absent verifiable changes to said system?

Is that the standard? 100% foolproof? Or reasonably foolproof?

Just because someone fooled that system in a singular instance, doesn’t mean I’d assume some might (or is likely to) in any other instance.

[AsherO]

The unemployment and workers comp liabilities, in addition to payroll/admin expenses are prohibitive. There is no real perfect solution.

If the restaurant has to pay those anyway they can pay the Kashrus agency the gross cost of employing the Mashgiach, so it’s probably more than that.

[imayid2]

Just because someone fooled that system in a singular instance, doesn’t mean I’d assume some might (or is likely to) in any other instance.

They are many many breaches you never hear of. This is of epic proportions so it’s a bigger deal.

[wayfe]

The story went viral today, their public response leaves no doubt about whether treif was served. They aren't saying - "we are investigating and keilim might need to be toiveled". It doesn't get clearer.

FYI, spoke to my LOR, and he said that this statement doesn't definitively say that treif was served, but rather there is a chashash. As such, my psak was that since the food was no longer yad tzoledes bo (after 30-40min travel time from the restaurant), any dishes/utensils used do not need to be kashered.

So they DEFINITELY do need to be more clear, if that isn't the case.

[AsherO]

They are many many breaches you never hear of. This is of epic proportions so it’s a bigger deal.

Of course. I don’t expect 100% foolproof, the person I quoted seemed to imply that was the standard of all the major Kashrus agencies and I was questioning that.

[Lurker]

If the restaurant has to pay those anyway they can pay the Kashrus agency the gross cost of employing the Mashgiach, so it’s probably more than that.

A restaurant can determine their own liabilities. If they choose to be uninsured or under insured, that's on them. The hashgacha can't take those risks. The admin costs are also very different for a business adding one employee, and a kashris organization dealing with numerous employees in numerous locations.

[dasmo801]

Is that the standard? 100% foolproof? Or reasonably foolproof?

Just because someone fooled that system in a singular instance, doesn’t mean I’d assume some might (or is likely to) in any other instance.

Am I allowed to eat food that I'm "reasonably" sure is kosher (absent any חזקת כשרות )?

[imayid2]

FYI, spoke to my LOR, and he said that this statement doesn't definitively say that treif was served, but rather there is a chashash. As such, my psak was that since the food was no longer yad tzoledes bo (after 30-40min travel time from the restaurant), any dishes/utensils used do not need to be kashered.

So they DEFINITELY do need to be more clear, if that isn't the case.

If the food wasn’t hot enough there is no difference if it was definitely treif or not.
Unless it’s a safek if it was hot and he’s putting the 2 sfakos together.

[AsherO]

Am I allowed to eat food that I'm "reasonably" sure is kosher (absent any חזקת כשרות )?

Halacha has standards for what’s reliable enough, e.g. two simanim/seals for meat. Is that 100% foolproof?

I don’t think that’s 100% foolproof, I think it’s reasonably foolproof and halachically sufficient, and there are many more such halachic standards that are the basis for Kashrus agencies’ policies.

[Dan]

Foolproof is impossible.
If you want closer to foolproof, we have to move from keys to facial/iris recognition.

[Lurker]

Am I allowed to eat food that I'm "reasonably" sure is kosher (absent any חזקת כשרות )?

Ask anyone who works in hashgacha if it's foolproof. I know mashgichim who will only eat food from where they work, because its the only place they can verify the kashrus. I also know people who have worked in the industry for decades who will not eat food from any commercial establishment because of what they've seen over the years.  Everyone has their standards, but foolproof doesn't exist.

[S209]

Am I allowed to eat food that I'm "reasonably" sure is kosher (absent any חזקת כשרות )?

Yes (although that’s a stira)

[dasmo801]

Halacha has standards for what’s reliable enough, e.g. two simanim/seals for meat. Is that 100% foolproof?

I don’t think that’s 100% foolproof, I think it’s reasonably foolproof and halachically sufficient, and there are many more such halachic standards that are the basis for Kashrus agencies’ policies.

The point that I'm trying to clarify is this:
As I understand it, when dealing with a frum owned establishment, where the owner has a חזקת כשרות, the role of the hashgocha is really to serve as a back up. מעיקר הדין one can be סומך on the נאמנות  of the owner who is like any other עד אחד. It is for this reason that I don't fault the hashgochos in the Cleveland case or the Monsey case nearly as much as in this case.
Here we are dealing with people with zero נאמנות. As such, absent whatever halacha considers an עדות on the kashrus from an עד כשר the food must be considered non kosher.
Am I worng on these points?