Author Topic: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken  (Read 118658 times)

Offline dasmo801

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #340 on: September 05, 2022, 10:44:48 PM »
We live in an obviously flawed world, but I (personally) wouldn't necessarily extrapolate from this specific situation to every situation.

I'm really trying to understand the argument. They had one job - to design and implement a foolproof system to ensure with 100% certainty that the food that I was eating was kosher. They failed. On what basis can I continue to rely on their hashgocha, absent verifiable changes to said system?

Offline aygart

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #341 on: September 05, 2022, 10:46:26 PM »
I know him. He has his "perks". Take his opinions with a grain of salt, look into it and decide for yourself, but he doesn't make up facts.
NME
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline imayid2

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #342 on: September 05, 2022, 10:46:47 PM »
The most the Hechsher can testify about is that they ensured conjuring under which you can assume it is kosher.
This would seem to negate RRFís whole argument.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #343 on: September 05, 2022, 10:47:05 PM »
Because you arenít rejecting נאמנות. Youíre suspecting incompetence. Who cares what that suspicion is based on?
The torah wants us to trust people. It doesn't matter what you're suspecting, you are not trusting him.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #344 on: September 05, 2022, 10:48:15 PM »
The torah wants us to trust people.
When they testify they know with certainty this is kosher.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #345 on: September 05, 2022, 10:51:23 PM »
Wouldnít that cause a conflict of interests?

It's an argument that has been made... The counter argument is made that the hashgacha offers their mashgichim paid leave if they are fired because they report an issue, and also get them a job somewhere else. I'm not sold on it being a fool-proof system.

At the end of the day, hashgacha comes down to a lot of trust. You wouldn't put your life's savings blindly into the hands of anyone who claims competence. If you value your yiddishkeit more than your money, you should do just as much research into the hashgachos that you trust.
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #346 on: September 05, 2022, 10:54:10 PM »
It does become that, especially when the Mashgiach gets a really good wage and canít quickly/easily find another employer paying that. I never understood why the Mashgichim arenít paid by the agency, maybe it has to do with payroll logistics/legalities.

The unemployment and workers comp liabilities, in addition to payroll/admin expenses are prohibitive. There is no real perfect solution.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #347 on: September 05, 2022, 10:54:26 PM »
I'm really trying to understand the argument. They had one job - to design and implement a foolproof system to ensure with 100% certainty that the food that I was eating was kosher. They failed. On what basis can I continue to rely on their hashgocha, absent verifiable changes to said system?

Is that the standard? 100% foolproof? Or reasonably foolproof?

Just because someone fooled that system in a singular instance, doesnít mean Iíd assume some might (or is likely to) in any other instance.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #348 on: September 05, 2022, 10:56:00 PM »
The unemployment and workers comp liabilities, in addition to payroll/admin expenses are prohibitive. There is no real perfect solution.

If the restaurant has to pay those anyway they can pay the Kashrus agency the gross cost of employing the Mashgiach, so itís probably more than that.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #349 on: September 05, 2022, 10:56:58 PM »
Just because someone fooled that system in a singular instance, doesnít mean Iíd assume some might (or is likely to) in any other instance.
They are many many breaches you never hear of. This is of epic proportions so itís a bigger deal.

Offline wayfe

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #350 on: September 05, 2022, 10:58:40 PM »
The story went viral today, their public response leaves no doubt about whether treif was served. They aren't saying - "we are investigating and keilim might need to be toiveled". It doesn't get clearer.

FYI, spoke to my LOR, and he said that this statement doesn't definitively say that treif was served, but rather there is a chashash. As such, my psak was that since the food was no longer yad tzoledes bo (after 30-40min travel time from the restaurant), any dishes/utensils used do not need to be kashered.

So they DEFINITELY do need to be more clear, if that isn't the case.
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers which can't be questioned."
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #351 on: September 05, 2022, 10:58:47 PM »
They are many many breaches you never hear of. This is of epic proportions so itís a bigger deal.

Of course. I donít expect 100% foolproof, the person I quoted seemed to imply that was the standard of all the major Kashrus agencies and I was questioning that.
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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #352 on: September 05, 2022, 10:59:42 PM »
If the restaurant has to pay those anyway they can pay the Kashrus agency the gross cost of employing the Mashgiach, so itís probably more than that.

A restaurant can determine their own liabilities. If they choose to be uninsured or under insured, that's on them. The hashgacha can't take those risks. The admin costs are also very different for a business adding one employee, and a kashris organization dealing with numerous employees in numerous locations.
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Offline dasmo801

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #353 on: September 05, 2022, 11:02:42 PM »
Is that the standard? 100% foolproof? Or reasonably foolproof?

Just because someone fooled that system in a singular instance, doesnít mean Iíd assume some might (or is likely to) in any other instance.

Am I allowed to eat food that I'm "reasonably" sure is kosher (absent any חזקת כשרות )?

Offline imayid2

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #354 on: September 05, 2022, 11:04:42 PM »
FYI, spoke to my LOR, and he said that this statement doesn't definitively say that treif was served, but rather there is a chashash. As such, my psak was that since the food was no longer yad tzoledes bo (after 30-40min travel time from the restaurant), any dishes/utensils used do not need to be kashered.

So they DEFINITELY do need to be more clear, if that isn't the case.
If the food wasnít hot enough there is no difference if it was definitely treif or not.
Unless itís a safek if it was hot and heís putting the 2 sfakos together.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #355 on: September 05, 2022, 11:05:27 PM »
Am I allowed to eat food that I'm "reasonably" sure is kosher (absent any חזקת כשרות )?

Halacha has standards for whatís reliable enough, e.g. two simanim/seals for meat. Is that 100% foolproof?

I donít think thatís 100% foolproof, I think itís reasonably foolproof and halachically sufficient, and there are many more such halachic standards that are the basis for Kashrus agenciesí policies.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #356 on: September 05, 2022, 11:06:57 PM »
Foolproof is impossible.
If you want closer to foolproof, we have to move from keys to facial/iris recognition.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #357 on: September 05, 2022, 11:07:31 PM »
Am I allowed to eat food that I'm "reasonably" sure is kosher (absent any חזקת כשרות )?

Ask anyone who works in hashgacha if it's foolproof. I know mashgichim who will only eat food from where they work, because its the only place they can verify the kashrus. I also know people who have worked in the industry for decades who will not eat food from any commercial establishment because of what they've seen over the years.  Everyone has their standards, but foolproof doesn't exist.
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Offline S209

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #358 on: September 05, 2022, 11:10:20 PM »
Am I allowed to eat food that I'm "reasonably" sure is kosher (absent any חזקת כשרות )?
Yes (although thatís a stira)
Quote from: YitzyS
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Offline dasmo801

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Re: Manalapan Kosher Chinese Express Owner Buying Non-Kosher Chicken
« Reply #359 on: September 05, 2022, 11:17:45 PM »
Halacha has standards for whatís reliable enough, e.g. two simanim/seals for meat. Is that 100% foolproof?

I donít think thatís 100% foolproof, I think itís reasonably foolproof and halachically sufficient, and there are many more such halachic standards that are the basis for Kashrus agenciesí policies.

The point that I'm trying to clarify is this:
As I understand it, when dealing with a frum owned establishment, where the owner has a חזקת כשרות, the role of the hashgocha is really to serve as a back up. מעיקר הדין one can be סומך on the נאמנות  of the owner who is like any other עד אחד. It is for this reason that I don't fault the hashgochos in the Cleveland case or the Monsey case nearly as much as in this case.
Here we are dealing with people with zero נאמנות. As such, absent whatever halacha considers an עדות on the kashrus from an עד כשר the food must be considered non kosher.
Am I worng on these points?