Poll

Does gender affirming care breach the doctrine of do no harm?

Yes
31 (88.6%)
No
2 (5.7%)
Other - explain in thread
2 (5.7%)

Total Members Voted: 35

Author Topic: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?  (Read 21968 times)

Online Welder

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Posts: 1193
  • Total likes: 68
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #240 on: April 05, 2023, 08:58:47 AM »
You are not describing dysphoria which is feeling like a boy stuck  in a girls body
What's does feeling like a boy or feeling like a girl mean? It's the personality and characteristics.
"We need more welders and less philosophers" — Marco Rubio

Offline zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1502
  • Total likes: 1685
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: 412
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #241 on: April 05, 2023, 03:16:06 PM »
The link says schizophrenia is a lifelong illness with no cure

There is no cure, but the goal of treatment is to reduce (and hopefully stop) the symptoms.

Online Welder

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Posts: 1193
  • Total likes: 68
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #242 on: April 06, 2023, 07:22:37 PM »
Interesting points

"We need more welders and less philosophers" — Marco Rubio

Online ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15767
  • Total likes: 7891
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #243 on: April 18, 2023, 02:07:05 PM »
Posting this here because I'm not sure where this belongs.

https://twitter.com/spomboy/status/1648384328219471873?s=20
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Online ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15767
  • Total likes: 7891
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #244 on: April 18, 2023, 09:26:34 PM »
To quote the late Bob Grant "it's sick out there and getting sicker".

https://twitter.com/cernovich/status/1648422303351570432
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Online ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15767
  • Total likes: 7891
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline bochur22

  • Dansdeals Bronze Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2022
  • Posts: 41
  • Total likes: 159
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #246 on: April 19, 2023, 12:48:25 PM »
it’s possible gender dysphoria is lifelong as well. I don’t know if the goal of the interactions are anything more than helping them cope as best they can despite the impediment.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/full
ETA: https://kffhealthnews.org/morning-breakout/research-on-children-growing-out-of-gender-dysphoria-adds-layer-of-complexity-to-transgender-care/
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 12:51:28 PM by bochur22 »

Offline EliJelly

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 2934
  • Total likes: 3535
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #247 on: April 19, 2023, 12:55:12 PM »

Online ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15767
  • Total likes: 7891
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #248 on: April 19, 2023, 01:09:58 PM »
TIL, it's Gomorrah, like Gaza and tziganer

And until you posted that, I never realized the relationship between the word tzigainer and the Hebrew term צועני.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 01:39:39 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline bochur22

  • Dansdeals Bronze Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2022
  • Posts: 41
  • Total likes: 159
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #249 on: April 19, 2023, 01:36:28 PM »
According to bccs.org:
“Do not reason, argue, or challenge the delusion. Attempting to disprove the delusion is not helpful and will create mistrust.
Assure the person that they are safe and no harm will come.
Do not leave the person alone – use openness and honesty at all times.
Encourage the person to verbalize feelings of anxiety, fear, and insecurity – offer concern and protection to prevent injury to themselves or others.
Convey acceptance of the need for the false belief.
Focus on building a trusting relationship with the person, rather than the need to control their symptoms – remain calm.”
https://www.bcss.org/support/how-do-i-get-help-for-my-loved-one/steps-working-delusions/
So again, what is your source? Please demonstrate a case of what you define as mental illness where “recognizing their craziness” is acknowledged as harmful. (For schizophrenia, you don’t have to buy into the delusion but it’s helpful for them to believe you are).
While it's not helpful to argue with the delusion of a schizophrenic, there's nothing here  that suggests playing up to the delusion. If someone insists on being shown the respect he deserves as Napoleon, it doesn't suggest that you also add on by shining his shoes without him asking for it. So, suggesting that gender Affirming care is the way to go would need some real empirical evidence behind it.

Offline neveryou

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2019
  • Posts: 585
  • Total likes: 262
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: US

Offline Definitions

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2018
  • Posts: 1748
  • Total likes: 480
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #251 on: April 23, 2023, 02:29:54 PM »
I'm assuming a lot of people would disagree with me on this. I'm a fan of eugenics. Not of outright killing people but of allowing people to make bad choices that affect reproduction rates. I'm limited by what God allows, which for frum people is nothing. But if in the long-term it will reduce such occurrences. I see that as a positive. This opinion (not exactly the same but similar concept) is in other areas too (i.e. shidduchim)

If it was a close relative and I truly cared about the person my actions wouldn't necessarily reflect this. I don't see that as a contradiction.
My Tapatalk notifications don't always work.

Offline Ver hut gazugt

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2021
  • Posts: 562
  • Total likes: 602
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: New york
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #252 on: April 23, 2023, 02:37:45 PM »
I'm assuming a lot of people would disagree with me on this. I'm a fan of eugenics. Not of outright killing people but of allowing people to make bad choices that affect reproduction rates. I'm limited by what God allows, which for frum people is nothing. But if in the long-term it will reduce such occurrences. I see that as a positive. This opinion (not exactly the same but similar concept) is in other areas too (i.e. shidduchim)

If it was a close relative and I truly cared about the person my actions wouldn't necessarily reflect this. I don't see that as a contradiction.
what about hospitals, doctors etc… ?
I think you need to think this through again. This is a very toxic idea, and I see no way for it to be compatible with Torah.

The idea that people with improper beliefs will just die out is flawed. Besides for children people can influence other people so the ideas outlast there own lives and can continue with others.

Offline AsherO

  • Global Moderator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 30K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 30679
  • Total likes: 7956
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 79
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #253 on: April 23, 2023, 08:15:58 PM »
I'm assuming a lot of people would disagree with me on this. I'm a fan of eugenics. Not of outright killing people but of allowing people to make bad choices that affect reproduction rates. I'm limited by what God allows, which for frum people is nothing. But if in the long-term it will reduce such occurrences. I see that as a positive. This opinion (not exactly the same but similar concept) is in other areas too (i.e. shidduchim)

If it was a close relative and I truly cared about the person my actions wouldn't necessarily reflect this. I don't see that as a contradiction.

If the issue is social and not genetics, then your solution is a non-starter.
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline bochur22

  • Dansdeals Bronze Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2022
  • Posts: 41
  • Total likes: 159
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #254 on: May 03, 2023, 03:53:24 PM »
UNC's Children's hospital used to have a page on their website (Till yesterday).
Here's the text that still shows on google results when one googles "university north carolina gender clinic":
"Our mission is to provide coordinated evidence-based care for gender diverse individuals ages 4-30 years and their families exploring or undergoing gender ..."

The link now says the page doesn't exist. Coincidentally, this was put out this week:
https://www.edfirstnc.org/post/transgender-toddlers-treated-at-duke-unc-and-ecu

I guess transitioning 3 and 4 yr. olds isn't a great PR look. Although I'd say that definitely counts as parents making a choice for their child.

Offline bochur22

  • Dansdeals Bronze Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2022
  • Posts: 41
  • Total likes: 159
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #255 on: May 03, 2023, 04:08:51 PM »
UCSF starts "social transitions" at age 3. When, of course every kid knows themselves well enough to see what gender they are.
As a bonus, their web page is still up as of now...
https://www.ucsfbenioffchildrens.org/clinics/child-and-adolescent-gender-center
" The CAGC accepts new patients ages 3 through 17. "
ETA: Cinncinati Childrens starts at 5:
https://www.cincinnatichildrens.org/service/a/adolescent-medicine/programs/transgender
« Last Edit: May 03, 2023, 04:12:11 PM by bochur22 »

Online YitzyS

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2015
  • Posts: 5584
  • Total likes: 13797
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 34
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood, NJ

Offline Alexsei

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 5823
  • Total likes: 1440
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
    • Travel & Kivrei Zadikim
  • Location: Truckistan
  • Programs: COVID-23
Jews ≠ Zionists
Palestinians ≠ Hamas
Satmar ≠ SatmarHQ

Offline Alexsei

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 5823
  • Total likes: 1440
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
    • Travel & Kivrei Zadikim
  • Location: Truckistan
  • Programs: COVID-23
Jews ≠ Zionists
Palestinians ≠ Hamas
Satmar ≠ SatmarHQ

Offline Alexsei

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 5823
  • Total likes: 1440
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 5
    • View Profile
    • Travel & Kivrei Zadikim
  • Location: Truckistan
  • Programs: COVID-23
Re: Gender affirming care, does it help or hurt children?
« Reply #259 on: May 10, 2023, 08:32:54 PM »
[tweet]1656420248562679808[/tweet]
Jews ≠ Zionists
Palestinians ≠ Hamas
Satmar ≠ SatmarHQ