Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 376270 times)

Offline gutlib

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1560 on: January 12, 2024, 12:59:54 PM »
This is a misunderstanding. Meshichistim believe that proclaiming the Rebbe is moshiach will bring moshiach sooner.

If moshiach is not the Rebbe, they'll gladly accept that and will ask the Rebbe or eliyahu their questions. But the Rebbe's kuch was about moshiach, the only debate is how to accomplish that.
old joke (for those who understand..)

When Moshiach comes he'll go to Chabad to show them that their Rebbi was not Moshiach, then go to Belz and take them out of the vinkel and at last stop into Bresliv and to extinguish the fire.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1561 on: January 12, 2024, 01:01:19 PM »
(for those who understand..)
Count me out but Iím listening :)


Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1562 on: January 12, 2024, 01:26:41 PM »
The infatuation chabad has with "The Rebbe IS Mashiach" sounds like they are 100% convinced that that is the only option. I'm trying to figure out how they came to that conclusion.
I guess I'm not clear what part of Chabad you are referring to. The extremes or as a whole.

I doubt it. (At least the meshichists). Their whole life was spent screaming yechi and waving yellow flags and putting up stupid stickers everywhere and doing mivtzoim that revovle around accepting the Rebbes matches and nevuah, and suddenly someone else says he was mashiach they accept him!? I call bs.

Furthermore,  the Rebbes death didn't stop them, and they found obscure sources that a dead person can be moshaich (something belied by the very concept of Moshiach Shebador) I'm sure they'd find some sources that there are two moshiach ben davids or something.
Like this nut will suddenly accept someone else as Moshiach? I doubt it.
https://forward.com/news/507424/messiah-is-here-signs-new-york-chabad-schneerson/

Once one is stuck in a conspiracy theory (which is essentially what meshichistim, no matter the scoop level, is) there's no way out.
So much to unpack.

From what I recall of this thread, the point is, if something is within the confines of Halacha then another group saying it is against halacha are themselves the bigger problem of the two groups.

By you saying that obscure sources are conspiracy theories and seemingly unacceptable, then you are in essence saying only some of torah is true but not all. And hey, cool man, believe what you want, but don't go telling others they are in the wrong here.

Like Dan said:

This is a misunderstanding. Meshichistim believe that proclaiming the Rebbe is moshiach will bring moshiach sooner.

If moshiach is not the Rebbe, they'll gladly accept that and will ask the Rebbe or eliyahu their questions. But the Rebbe's kuch was about moshiach, the only debate is how to accomplish that.
And while I agree 0.0001% of people may not agree with that, it's a fraction of a fraction, but the Chabad consensuses definitely agree with it. OTOH I think a much larger percentage, maybe yourself included, would say that they won't follow the Rebbe if he came as moshiach now.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1563 on: January 12, 2024, 01:30:08 PM »
If you talk to your average learned lubavitcher that believes the Rebbe is Moshiach, I think he would explain The Rebbe is what the Rambam calls chezkas Moshiach and not Moshiach vaday.

@ExGingi CMIIW.

It seems a lot of confusion comes from chabad saying the rebbe is moshiach to what outsiders take to mean the rebbe is moshiach and we won't follow anyone else even if they do everything laid out in rambam would take to be moshiach vaday.
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Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1564 on: January 12, 2024, 01:34:04 PM »
I guess I'm not clear what part of Chabad you are referring to. The extremes or as a whole.
So much to unpack.

From what I recall of this thread, the point is, if something is within the confines of Halacha then another group saying it is against halacha are themselves the bigger problem of the two groups.

By you saying that obscure sources are conspiracy theories and seemingly unacceptable, then you are in essence saying only some of torah is true but not all. And hey, cool man, believe what you want, but don't go telling others they are in the wrong here.

Like Dan said:
 And while I agree 0.0001% of people may not agree with that, it's a fraction of a fraction, but the Chabad consensuses definitely agree with it. OTOH I think a much larger percentage, maybe yourself included, would say that they won't follow the Rebbe if he came as moshiach now.

Halacha works a certain way.

Unless you are ok with woman rabbis? Or someone who doesn't believe in Moshaich at all? Or someone who believes in J? Because there are halachic sources that would be OK with all 3.
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Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1565 on: January 12, 2024, 01:38:23 PM »
If you talk to your average learned lubavitcher that believes the Rebbe is Moshiach, I think he would explain The Rebbe is what the Rambam calls chezkas Moshiach and not Moshiach vaday.

@ExGingi CMIIW.

It seems a lot of confusion comes from chabad saying the rebbe is moshiach to what outsiders take to mean the rebbe is moshiach and we won't follow anyone else even if they do everything laid out in rambam would take to be moshiach vaday.

It doesnt fit that without some serious source kvetching but ok.

And ignoring the fact that the Rambam holds Moshiach has to come from the living.

And ignoring the fact that the chazaka would be broken with death.

But if you cherry pick other sources and twist and kvetch, it works, so it's OK, and if you call it out you are the bigger problem!

Fine.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1566 on: January 12, 2024, 01:38:48 PM »
From what I recall of this thread, the point is, if something is within the confines of Halacha then another group saying it is against halacha are themselves the bigger problem of the two groups.
Not really sure what this means. How can believing the Rebbe is mashiach be ďagainst HalachaĒ. There is no halachik violation even if I think it isnít true.

I mean Iíve heard  some give him an Aliya, so technically thatís messing up up קרה״ת, but that scoop territory FWIU.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1567 on: January 12, 2024, 01:39:44 PM »
And ignoring the fact that the Rambam holds Moshiachbhas to come from the living.
Can the Rambam be wrong? :)

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1568 on: January 12, 2024, 01:44:07 PM »
I've seen one working on adjusting the Rebbe's mic with maybe a thousand people watching without giving a blink.

You know there are hundreds of thousands of lubavitchers in the world, yes?

770 happens to be a magnet for extremists. Also, how many of the 1,000 people are watching the spectacle versus participating?

After a period of silence (when the Rebbe finished the Sicha?), the entire fully packed 770 broke out in fiery yechi songs. I didn't read their brains but it definitely didn't seem like they were just watching a spectacle.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1569 on: January 12, 2024, 01:44:35 PM »
Halacha works a certain way.

Unless you are ok with woman rabbis? Or someone who doesn't believe in Moshaich at all? Or someone who believes in J? Because there are halachic sources that would be OK with all 3.
Why do you think of Mashiach can come from the dead is a halachik discussion?

It is not.

Women Rabbis are arguably

J Is considered part of Trinity

Not believing in mashiach is against an ikkur.

Non comparable 

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1570 on: January 12, 2024, 01:45:03 PM »
Because there are halachic sources that would be OK with all 3.
I think we are getting to the bottom of your misunderstanding with how Halacha works.

Tell me more about your sources.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1571 on: January 12, 2024, 01:46:37 PM »
After a period of silence (when the Rebbe finished the Sicha?), the entire fully packed 770 broke out in fiery yechi songs. I didn't read their brains but it definitely didn't seem like they were just watching a spectacle.
Lol. Please send me those clips!
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1572 on: January 12, 2024, 01:46:55 PM »
Not really sure what this means. How can believing the Rebbe is mashiach be ďagainst HalachaĒ. There is no halachik violation even if I think it isnít true.

I mean Iíve heard  some give him an Aliya, so technically thatís messing up up קרה״ת, but that scoop territory FWIU.
You must not have read this whole thread. If not, the post may seem random.

There are people that won't eat a Chabad hechsher because they believe that thinking the rebbe could be moshiach is apikarsus and makes them not believed for issurim.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1573 on: January 12, 2024, 01:50:34 PM »
You must not have read this whole thread. If not, the post may seem random.

There are people that won't eat a Chabad hechsher because they believe that thinking the rebbe could be moshiach is apikarsus and makes them not believed for issurim.
I have read the thread.

I donít think thatís accurate as I started todayís discussion:
ďMessianismĒ IMHO is a distraction.

Of course there is nothing heretical believing if someoneís mashiach even if they arenít alive. Itís the shevil stuff thatís a red flag.

Do non meshichists do shevil stuff?

To say that believing the Rebbe could be mashiach is apikursus is laughable and demonstrably false.

And this has nothing to do of there are actually sources for it, it isnít regardless.

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1574 on: January 12, 2024, 01:53:14 PM »
I have read the thread.

I donít think thatís accurate as I started todayís discussion:
To say that believing the Rebbe could be mashiach is apikursus is laughable and demonstrably false.

I this has nothing to do of there are actually sources for it, it isnít regardless.
Happy to hear it. If everyone felt the same, this thread would be 1 page.
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Offline EliJelly

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1575 on: January 12, 2024, 01:53:56 PM »
Lol. Please send me those clips!

Happened this past CH Sukkos. Captured it with my flip phone so very unclear since it was from a distance. Was also uncomfortable recording in such a holy setting when nobody had their phones out. 

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1576 on: January 12, 2024, 01:55:02 PM »
Happened this past CH Sukkos. Captured it with my flip phone so very unclear since it was from a distance. Was also uncomfortable recording in such a holy setting when nobody had their phones out. 
Tishrei has a HUGE influx from Israel, basically everyone that is extreme is there in Tishrei if they physically can be.
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Offline EliJelly

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1577 on: January 12, 2024, 01:55:38 PM »
What is the earliest source in Chabad that the Rebbe is the מלך המשיח? Did the Rashab ever called his father or grandfather so? Contrary to what others have pushed upthread, that language was NEVER used anywhere else, to the contrary, there was once a time when certain people applied that to their Rebbe and it was rebuked by the gedolei h'dor. (I can post sources to that)

Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1578 on: January 12, 2024, 01:56:42 PM »
Happy to hear it. If everyone felt the same, this thread would be 1 page.

I agree. But there's a large gap between not apikrosus and correct.

I also would like to know the prevalence of these beliefs on Chabad. This thread made me think it's higher tham I thought which is sad.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1579 on: January 12, 2024, 02:00:13 PM »
I also would like to know the prevalence of these beliefs on Chabad. This thread made me think it's higher tham I thought which is sad.

Why is it sad that people believe something that you feel is incorrect.

Who cares?