Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 386971 times)

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1580 on: January 12, 2024, 02:01:55 PM »
Happy to hear it. If everyone felt the same, this thread would be 1 page.
No, the thread would be focused on what exactly crosses the line to problematic beliefs and how prevalent it is, instead of this mashiach distraction.

Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1581 on: January 12, 2024, 02:04:15 PM »
Why is it sad that people believe something that you feel is incorrect.

Who cares?

Because it's a beautiful section of klal yisrael destroyed by lunacy. It would he the same if they were antivaxers or 9/11 truthers.

Additionally,  I greatly enjoy the Rebbes Torah and find if I say it over, it gets treated as a laughingstock because of th le beliefs of some of his Chassidim (not convinced its a majority).
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1582 on: January 12, 2024, 02:05:56 PM »
Because it's a beautiful section of klal yisrael destroyed by lunacy.
How is it “destroyed”?

We aren’t talking about shevil guys, just regular meshichists.

Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1583 on: January 12, 2024, 02:06:53 PM »
How is it “destroyed”?

We aren’t talking about shevil guys, just regular meshichists.

Imagined if you found out that a gadol believed in qanon. it's not kefira but you question his gadol-ness.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2024, 02:09:57 PM by TheAsh »
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1584 on: January 12, 2024, 02:09:06 PM »
I guess I'm not clear what part of Chabad you are referring to. The extremes or as a whole.
Anyone who proclaims the Rebbe as Mashiach. If you write yechi on your papers (like the official 770 stationary) you're included.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1585 on: January 12, 2024, 02:09:37 PM »
Imagined if you found out that a gadol believed in qanon.
Ok so you think believing he’s mashiach is that level in itself.

That’s subjective.

Let’s say you found out a Gadol is an anti vaxer.

Same?

Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1586 on: January 12, 2024, 02:11:02 PM »
Ok so you think believing he’s mashiach is that level in itself.

That’s subjective.

Let’s say you found out a Gadol is an anti vaxer.

Same?
Same. And imagine that all his followers believed the same and told everyone that all other followers of all other gedolim adopt this position as well.

Oh, and the Gadol isn't actually an antivaxer.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1587 on: January 12, 2024, 02:11:41 PM »
Because it's a beautiful section of klal yisrael destroyed by lunacy. It would he the same if they were antivaxers or 9/11 truthers.

Additionally,  I greatly enjoy the Rebbes Torah and find if I say it over, it gets treated as a laughingstock because of th le beliefs of some of his Chassidim (not convinced its a majority).
Do you feel Chabad is destroyed?
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1588 on: January 12, 2024, 02:12:16 PM »
Anyone who proclaims the Rebbe as Mashiach. If you write yechi on your papers (like the official 770 stationary) you're included.
Ok, yeah, so like me and Dan said. You are totally off with what you assumed.
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1589 on: January 12, 2024, 02:19:46 PM »
Ok, yeah, so like me and Dan said. You are totally off with what you assumed.
Please enlighten me
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1590 on: January 12, 2024, 02:20:16 PM »
Do you feel Chabad is destroyed?

The parts who believe that the Rebbe is Moshaich, yes. There's something off there. I mean intellectually ruined, not destroyed.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1591 on: January 12, 2024, 02:21:00 PM »
Same. And imagine that all his followers believed the same and told everyone that all other followers of all other gedolim adopt this position as well.

Oh, and the Gadol isn't actually an antivaxer.
This is such a slippery slope for how you make opinions on people, it's scary to me.

You have a DDF Members that says talking in shul, is worse than most anything else, and if you talk, you are basically off the derech, sorta what you are saying is the feeling I get. Is he wrong? Idk, it's hard for me to judge others personal beliefs and struggles.

If someone is fat, IMO they are much worse than an anti-vaxer. If a gadol is fat are they breaking halacha? Probably? Do they have less followers, I don't think so.

If someone smokes, obviously they are breaking halacha and are MUCH worse than all the above mentioned people.

If someone doesn't brush their teeth, they are likely also breaking halacha, and you are welcome to have poor opinions about all of these people. And say they destroy their whole persona. 

I disagree with you though.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1592 on: January 12, 2024, 02:22:42 PM »
Please enlighten me
Missed mine and Dan's posts?

Who said only option?

If someone else shows up as moshiach chabad would go with them.

And FTR that is more than I can say about what Litvish told me about the Rebbe being moshiach.

This is a misunderstanding. Meshichistim believe that proclaiming the Rebbe is moshiach will bring moshiach sooner.

If moshiach is not the Rebbe, they'll gladly accept that and will ask the Rebbe or eliyahu their questions. But the Rebbe's kuch was about moshiach, the only debate is how to accomplish that.
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Offline TheAsh

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1593 on: January 12, 2024, 02:22:50 PM »
Do you feel Chabad is destroyed?

Let's be honest, the ones who hide it (if that is indeed true) do it because other people think they're nuts and they won't be effective. There is a reason other people will think they are nuts, and it's not too hard to figure out. Ask yourself why Chabad doesn't want its messianism advertised (if that claim is true) and you've answered what precisely is ruined in it by it in fact being true.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1594 on: January 12, 2024, 02:26:03 PM »
Let's be honest, the ones who hide it (if that is indeed true) do it because other people think they're nuts and they won't be effective. There is a reason other people will think they are nuts, and it's not too hard to figure out. Ask yourself why Chabad doesn't want its messianism advertised (if that claim is true) and you've answered what precisely is ruined in it by it in fact being true.
This was another HUGE point in this thread and others.

You believe that Amalek babies must be murdered. Do you share that on your social daily? Does that change a lot of your daily life?

The answer is no.

The reason is, you can believe something inside, and it doesn't have to have an effect on others or on your daily life. And why would you go advertise something that isn't relevant? That's plain weird.

Litvish often think, believing the rebbe is moshiach is a life defining belief that changes everything. That isn't the case. Some extreme people make it the case, and like Dan said, some believe spreading it bring moshiach closer. Most do not.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1595 on: January 12, 2024, 02:26:11 PM »
Same. And imagine that all his followers believed the same and told everyone that all other followers of all other gedolim adopt this position as well.

Oh, and the Gadol isn't actually an antivaxer.
What about if they believe it, in part because if their Rebbe said it it most be true. But don’t make it a focal point of their life, and instead focus on other most noble pursuits?

What about if someone believes in spontaneous generation because the Gemara is pretty clear that they believed that, are they intellectually destroyed?

Offline Dan

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1596 on: January 12, 2024, 02:26:24 PM »
Let's be honest, the ones who hide it (if that is indeed true) do it because other people think they're nuts and they won't be effective. There is a reason other people will think they are nuts, and it's not too hard to figure out. Ask yourself why Chabad doesn't want its messianism advertised (if that claim is true) and you've answered what precisely is ruined in it by it in fact being true.
Nobody is hiding anything.

Being an anti has nothing to do with hiding.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1597 on: January 12, 2024, 02:27:35 PM »
Missed mine and Dan's posts?
I saw them, but apparently I'm still misunderstanding something.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1598 on: January 12, 2024, 02:29:38 PM »
I saw them, but apparently I'm still misunderstanding something.
Enlighten me? What's missing?

If you talk to your average learned lubavitcher that believes the Rebbe is Moshiach, I think he would explain The Rebbe is what the Rambam calls chezkas Moshiach and not Moshiach vaday.

@ExGingi CMIIW.

It seems a lot of confusion comes from chabad saying the rebbe is moshiach to what outsiders take to mean the rebbe is moshiach and we won't follow anyone else even if they do everything laid out in rambam would take to be moshiach vaday.
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Offline Jellybelly

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #1599 on: January 12, 2024, 02:47:14 PM »
You must not have read this whole thread. If not, the post may seem random.

There are people that won't eat a Chabad hechsher because they believe that thinking the rebbe could be moshiach is apikarsus and makes them not believed for issurim.

I always thought that the reasoning why they wouldn’t eat Lubavitcher meat
was because they can’t tell the difference between dead and alive 🤷🏻‍♂️