Messianism among Lubavitch

[churnbabychurn]

Where did you hear that? At what point in the video?

You weren't around in the good days here, but back up thread, the thing that really touched a nerve was the notion that all these various brands of "crazies" didn't start in a vacuum. - they were directly led astray...

Not at all intending to rehash this all, but I do sincerely wish that 20+ years later, some chassidim took a fresh look with an open mind.

[aygart]

Pretty low of you

This is the minimum way a person should relate to anything chabad related:

Is it that faction which did so much or are they taking advantage of or hiding behind those which did?

[aygart]

You weren't around in the good days here, but back up thread, the thing that really touched a nerve was the notion that all these various brands of "crazies" didn't start in a vacuum. - they were directly led astray...

Not at all intending to rehash this all, but I do sincerely wish that 20+ years later, some chassidim took a fresh look with an open mind.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they were directly led astray, but rather that these things are a logical future outcome and bound to happen. Of course those who went that far are the fringe extreme elements but they did not create the path they only dared to travel on it. This seems to have been the issue with Sabbateanism long before it became clear that he went off the deep end. This seems to have been the issue the Rav Shach had while the Rebbe was still alive. This seems to have been the issue at the beginning of chassidus. (all this in my understanding) When I wrote in other threads that it is possible that the cherem is what kept chassidus in check it is that it may have prevented these types of things from happening sooner.

[Dan]

A recurring theme that the Rebbe is the embodiment of G-d in flesh and blood. 9:40, 29:00 and several other places.

I am not at all educated in Toras Chasidus.  To the unintiated litvak, this sounds freighteningly Christain.

What is that clip anyway?

Can't say I encountered anything like that in my lifetime.

[Boruch999]

What is that clip anyway?

No idea

Can't say I encountered anything like that in my lifetime.

He's quoting from the Tzemach Tzedek's and the Rebbe's writtings, among others.  Albeit his interpetation.

[aygart]

What is that clip anyway?

Can't say I encountered anything like that in my lifetime.

The point is these extreme fringes exist and while everyone who is not Lubavitch sees them very clearly many Lubavitchers seem to have their heads in the sand about them as can be seen right here in this thread.

[jj1000]

I wouldn't go so far as to say they were directly led astray, but rather that these things are a logical future outcome and bound to happen. Of course those who went that far are the fringe extreme elements but they did not create the path they only dared to travel on it. This seems to have been the issue with Sabbateanism long before it became clear that he went off the deep end. This seems to have been the issue the Rav Shach had while the Rebbe was still alive. This seems to have been the issue at the beginning of chassidus. (all this in my understanding) When I wrote in other threads that it is possible that the cherem is what kept chassidus in check it is that it may have prevented these types of things from happening sooner.

The biggest cause of Jews going away from Judaism was the creation of Judaism. If Abraham never accepted Hashem and the Jews never accepted the Torah there wouldn't be so many people off the derech now.

If only a cherem was made on Jews back then maybe not as many Jews from be fry now?

[Dan]

The biggest cause of Jews going away from Judaism was the creation of Judaism. If Abraham never accepted Hashem and the Jews never accepted the Torah there wouldn't be so many people off the derech now.

A recurring theme that the Rebbe is the embodiment of G-d in flesh and blood. 9:40, 29:00 and several other places.

I am not at all educated in Toras Chasidus.  To the unintiated litvak, this sounds freighteningly Christain.

Anything can be twisted what else is new?

[Dan]

The point is these extreme fringes exist and while everyone who is not Lubavitch sees them very clearly many Lubavitchers seem to have their heads in the sand about them as can be seen right here in this thread.

Who here denied that there are lunatics on the fringe? Especially in Tzfas and the guys they send to CH.

Are there no lunatics in Satmar or Breslov?

[jj1000]

Anything can be twisted what else is new?

Esspecially after the fact.

One of my rebbeim who generally gave great mussar schmoozes decided that the holocaust happened because Europe Jewry were all going off the derech and haskala was infiltrating every yeshiva. Old style shtetl Judaism wasn't going to survive. And look everyone came to America and now we have so many frum people. That's why hashem did it.

And I thought he was crazy. But hey maybe he'd right no one can prove him wrong after the fact. He thinks it was the greatest thing in other words.

[jj1000]

Who here denied that there are lunatics on the fringe? Especially in Tzfas and the guys they send to CH.

Are there no lunatics in Satmar or Breslov?

I've a few litvish friends who love mussar and said they would happily commit suicide right now if they knew they would get into gan Eden after. That's a bit loony to me too.  But it's just an offshoot of musar right?

[aygart]

Who here denied that there are lunatics on the fringe? Especially in Tzfas and the guys they send to CH.

Are there no lunatics in Satmar or Breslov?

The differences between their lunacies are night and day very literally.

[aygart]

Esspecially after the fact.

One of my rebbeim who generally gave great mussar schmoozes decided that the holocaust happened because Europe Jewry were all going off the derech and haskala was infiltrating every yeshiva. Old style shtetl Judaism wasn't going to survive. And look everyone came to America and now we have so many frum people. That's why hashem did it.

And I thought he was crazy. But hey maybe he'd right no one can prove him wrong after the fact. He thinks it was the greatest thing in other words.

The meshech chachma wrote it before the holocaust. Rav Shach saw it before it happened.

[Dan]

How is a nutjob NK night and day from a Chabad nutjob?

[aygart]

How is a nutjob NK night and day from a Chabad nutjob?

You don't see the vast difference between NK and these guys on the video the way it is being described here?

[Dan]

Who are these guys on the video??
They're clearly not Lubavitchers.

[jj1000]

The meshech chachma wrote it before the holocaust. Rav Shach saw it before it happened.

Can we agree not to start a Rav Shach debate now? I think it was also done in part at least up thread.

I hope you see my point. here:

The biggest cause of Jews going away from Judaism was the creation of Judaism. If Abraham never accepted Hashem and the Jews never accepted the Torah there wouldn't be so many people off the derech now.

[aygart]

Who are these guys on the video??
They're clearly not Lubavitchers.

No true Scotsman? How so?

You didn't answer about seeing a difference.

[churnbabychurn]

I wouldn't go so far as to say they were directly led astray, .

As a non chabadsker, you should please properly study the Torah, the directives, and the actions of the leadership. - I doubt you have properly done this. - an unbiased person would objectively see the truth. - there are hundreds of strange and suspect sayings, actions that directly caused the confusion.etc etc. Etc.

I would guess that your familiarity of chabad world view is limited to what you heard from the opposition.

[jj1000]

As a non chabadsker, you should please properly study the Torah, the directives, and the actions of the leadership. - I doubt you have properly done this. - an unbiased person would objectively see the truth. - there are hundreds of strange and suspect sayings, actions that directly caused the confusion.etc etc. Etc.

I would guess that your familiarity of chabad world view is limited to what you heard from the opposition.

An unbiased person would objectively see the truth.

Hear hear.

I doubt you have properly done this.

Hear hear.