Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 205372 times)

Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2012, 06:20:12 PM »
My Background:
Before I start, I want to discuss my (tangential) history with Chabad. My mother became religious with Chabad when in university and I went to their day camp for a few summers when younger. While on vacation from high school, I would often daven with them during the week since it was pleasant and they had the latest local minyan (8:00am). I had a relationship with the local Chabad rav whom I respected a lot (this is in Cleveland). I would also volunteer with a different Chabad that packaged food for Russian immigrants.

When in Yeshiva in Israel, we were instructed by the rosh kollel that it was best to not daven in a Chabad due to the risk that they were mashichists (ppl who believed that the deceased Rebbe is the mashiach). After that, I have rarely davened with a Chabad minyan, although I would say that I never experienced overt messianism in the US. However, when I was in Venice, I davened in the Chabad there and was taken aback by the chanting after davening as well as other stuff, s/t I hadn't experienced in the US.
how about you start by asking your rosh kolel what the halachik basis is for saying Lubavitch "messianism" is kefira or avoda zarah or whatever the problem is and then we'll have what to talk about. (and I'm not talking about the handfull of people who are considered absolutely crazy even by the meshichist standards -and have been denounced even by the "meshichist" rabonim)

I'm willing to bet that if you look back far enough (assuming he's old enough) you'll find that this rosh kolel simply always hated Lubavitch even before this "messianism" existed and this is just his latest excuse.

btw, I don't know if anybody else here remembers this, but there was an article written about 15 years ago by R' Immanual Schochet (who would not be considered "messianist" by any stretch of the imagination) defending the "messianists" against claims that it's avodah zarah...

Offline Side incomer

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2012, 06:55:52 PM »
My 2 cents on the subject.

I'm sure you know in Cleveland it was never an issue because Rabbi Chaikin (as do most shluchim) falls into the anti-mishichist group and wouldn't allow people to say yechi in his shul.

I would say the majority of chabad chassidim believe deep down that he could be mashiach and there is plenty of halachic basis to believe that mashiach can come from the dead. 

I think most chassidim in general believe their rebbe to be the leader of their generation and thus the mashiach for their generation.  This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.

You would have to search high and low in the US to find a handful of chabad houses where yechi is said as it's simply bad PR and people feel it does more harm than good.  In Israel it's definitely more common, (perhaps the shluchim feel that it does good good than harm there, frankly I don't know) but even among those that do say yechi, 99.9% of them don't actually believe he's still walking around somewhere on this planet...

The crazies from Tzfas do make a lot of noise and flock to 770 to make even more noise.  Nobody really cares what they believe and nobody can control them or kick them out until the courts decide who the downstairs shul at 770 belongs to.

As far as "embodiment of Gd on some level" I'm not sure what you mean by this either, but ultimately we are all an embodiment of Gd as we all have a nefesh elokis and are created in His image.  Was he a Gdly man?  Of course, as are other tzaddkim that are righteous people and help bring Gds brachos down to us in a physical way.
+1.
I'm not chabad, but I'm a chasid. I was very long waiting to hear such an explanation from a chabad'ska, to prove that they are actually normal human beings. I knew that till now, but for some reason there is some misunderstandings in this aspect, that I and a lot of other people didn't understand, and I could say until now.
Well said!!
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2012, 07:06:39 PM »
I'm willing to bet that if you look back far enough (assuming he's old enough) you'll find that this rosh kolel simply always hated Lubavitch even before this "messianism" existed and this is just his latest excuse.
Not necessarily does reuvens' rosh yeshiva "hate" lubavitch. I would assume that he is someone that reuven respects a lot so speaking about his rosh yeshiva negatively will do exactly the opposite of showing that chabad is not kefirah... I strongly agree with your suggestion that the conversation should start with sources that moshiach can not be from the dead. I have had this conversation with people a countless amount of times and 99% of the time the person saying chabad is kefirah just say that that is what their rosh yeshiva told them and it is just so obviously the same thing. as christianity. In Judeaism everything starts and ends with what halacha says. Our emotions have no place in dictating the opinion of the torah. This being said from from every Jews birth they are raised to believe that christianity and the idea of Yashka being the messiah is pure evil, in addition through many thousands of false messiahs in our history we have a sort to say automatic rejection of believing in a particular person as being the messiah. This can be found in all parts of the jewish world: reformed, conservative, modern orthodox, litvish etc. Hence when a chasidic group makes a claim that their rebbe is the messiah it is automatically rejected. This way of thought is not necessarily from a bad thing because it saves allot of people from false beliefs. The problem arises when a group has a claim based on halacha it also is rejected with no further research.
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Offline JEWDA

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2012, 07:11:17 PM »
My 2 cents on the subject.

I'm sure you know in Cleveland it was never an issue because Rabbi Chaikin (as do most shluchim) falls into the anti-mishichist group and wouldn't allow people to say yechi in his shul.

I would say the majority of chabad chassidim believe deep down that he could be mashiach and there is plenty of halachic basis to believe that mashiach can come from the dead. 

I think most chassidim in general believe their rebbe to be the leader of their generation and thus the mashiach for their generation.  This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.

You would have to search high and low in the US to find a handful of chabad houses where yechi is said as it's simply bad PR and people feel it does more harm than good.  In Israel it's definitely more common, (perhaps the shluchim feel that it does good good than harm there, frankly I don't know) but even among those that do say yechi, 99.9% of them don't actually believe he's still walking around somewhere on this planet...

The crazies from Tzfas do make a lot of noise and flock to 770 to make even more noise.  Nobody really cares what they believe and nobody can control them or kick them out until the courts decide who the downstairs shul at 770 belongs to.

As far as "embodiment of Gd on some level" I'm not sure what you mean by this either, but ultimately we are all an embodiment of Gd as we all have a nefesh elokis and are created in His image.  Was he a Gdly man?  Of course, as are other tzaddkim that are righteous people and help bring Gds brachos down to us in a physical way.
I never knew thers so many ppl who believe moshiach is dead.
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2012, 07:14:02 PM »
He CAN be moshiach? He is!
PM me to discuss
I am sure everyone could benefit from your opinions and answers. Why not post them here? 

I never knew thers so many ppl who believe moshiach is dead.
Is and could be are practicaly opposites especially in this context.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 07:18:23 PM by jj1000 »
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Offline mclovin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2012, 07:18:27 PM »

I would say the majority of chabad chassidim believe deep down that he could be mashiach and there is plenty of halachic basis to believe that mashiach can come from the dead. 

without getting into whether according to halacha mashiach can be dead bec i dont know. if we take for granted that it is true, why would the lubavitcher rebbe be mashiach? i think everyone would agree that avraham, yitzchak, and yaakov etc were greater than him. why wouldnt they be mashiach?

Offline jj1000

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2012, 07:21:10 PM »
without getting into whether according to halacha mashiach can be dead bec i dont know. if we take for granted that it is true, why would the lubavitcher rebbe be mashiach? i think everyone would agree that avraham, yitzchak, and yaakov etc were greater than him. why wouldnt they be mashiach?
For starters they are not from the davidic line.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2012, 07:24:48 PM »
without getting into whether according to halacha mashiach can be dead bec i dont know. if we take for granted that it is true, why would the lubavitcher rebbe be mashiach? i think everyone would agree that avraham, yitzchak, and yaakov etc were greater than him. why wouldnt they be mashiach?

Now that's just ignorance...

Offline mclovin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2012, 07:33:34 PM »
Now that's just ignorance...
not sure what that means. what part was ignorance did u mean...
For starters they are not from the davidic line.
i think you get my point but if you want lets start from david and work our way down. im sure we can find someone greater/earlier

Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2012, 07:34:40 PM »
I would assume that he is someone that reuven respects a lot so speaking about his rosh yeshiva negatively will do exactly the opposite of showing that chabad is not kefirah...
You're right.
I probably should've been more sensitive. It was an emotional response to his (rosh kolel's?) attack against lubavitch and the shluchim through whom his "mother became religious with Chabad" and "the local Chabad rav whom I respected a lot".

(That being said I still stand by what I said and I still believe it to be true.)

Oh, and while I can see that it might not paint me in the best light, I fail to see how it will  "do exactly the opposite of showing that chabad is not kefirah..."

Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2012, 07:38:21 PM »
without getting into whether according to halacha mashiach can be dead bec i dont know. if we take for granted that it is true, why would the lubavitcher rebbe be mashiach?
If you're trying to say that for somebody who's NOT a Lubavitcher chassid it makes no sense to believe the Rebbe is moshiach, I would have to agree with you.
but that's a very far cry from saying that it's a"z ch"v.

Offline mclovin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2012, 07:42:31 PM »
If you're trying to say that for somebody who's NOT a Lubavitcher chassid it makes no sense to believe the Rebbe is moshiach, I would have to agree with you.
but that's a very far cry from saying that it's a"z ch"v.
i didnt call anybody anything im just trying to understand the logic of it. i never heard that a dead person could be mashiach but if its true- why the rebbe, even for a lubavitcher. he was not the greatest person to ever live. (i am not saying he was not a great person)

Offline bubbles

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2012, 07:42:42 PM »
If you're trying to say that for somebody who's NOT a Lubavitcher chassid it makes no sense to believe the Rebbe is moshiach, I would have to agree with you.
but that's a very far cry from saying that it's a"z ch"v.

I understand that this is a very sensitive topic for you but try to take it a little easy. I myself am not lubavitch or chadssidish at all but I happen to have some relatives that are pretty well know lubavitchers. I am coming as unbiased and ignorant and also wouldn't mind hearing responses to some of the questions. I am not at all insinuating that I think anything is wrong and definitely not that it's a"z. If even just talking about this is stepping on peoples toes than I think we should stop
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 07:50:58 PM by bubbles »

Offline AsherO

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2012, 07:49:22 PM »
not sure what that means. what part was ignorance did u mean...

I quoted which part is ignorance.

It's ignorance on the general topic of Moshiach, if you understand who Moshiach is and what his purpose is halachically/philosophically then you wouldn't suggest the אבות. For example, see ילקוט שמעוני on the verse "הנה ישכיל עבדי ירום ונשא וגבה מאד".

It's also ignorance on the topic of this thread (which is not what I was referring to), since for the reasons quoted above and for other reasons, the Chabad people believe what they believe and not what you're suggesting.

Regardless, I don't want to get involved in this discussion, since too many people (on both sides of the discussion) get too carried away with figuring out who the Moshiach is (which is not one of the obligations as outlined in the 13 principles of faith).

Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2012, 08:02:01 PM »
I understand that this is a very sensitive topic for you but try to take it a little easy. I myself am not lubavitch or chaddish at all but I happen to have some relatives that are pretty well know lubavitchers. I am coming as unbiased and ignorant and also wouldn't mind hearing responses to some of the questions. I am not at all insinuating that I think anything is wrong and definitely not that it's a"z. If even just talking about this is stepping on peoples toes than I think we should stop
I have no problem with your question.
If you want the "simple" answer:
I think most chassidim in general believe their rebbe to be the leader of their generation and thus the mashiach for their generation.  This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship, and something that scared the misnagdim for centuries.

Offline mclovin

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2012, 08:04:28 PM »
I quoted which part is ignorance.

It's ignorance on the general topic of Moshiach, if you understand who Moshiach is and what his purpose is halachically/philosophically then you wouldn't suggest the אבות. For example, see ילקוט שמעוני on the verse "הנה ישכיל עבדי ירום ונשא וגבה מאד".

It's also ignorance on the topic of this thread (which is not what I was referring to), since for the reasons quoted above and for other reasons, the Chabad people believe what they believe and not what you're suggesting.

Regardless, I don't want to get involved in this discussion, since too many people (on both sides of the discussion) get too carried away with figuring out who the Moshiach is (which is not one of the obligations as outlined in the 13 principles of faith).
i admit to ignorance on the detail of mashiach and who can be mashiach. i am also not trying to figure out who mashiach is bec we will never know until he comes. however why assume it is the rebbe? like i said, u can go back to achronim, rishonim, amoraim, taanaim etc or whoever can qualify to be mashiach but i think everyone will agree there was an earlier/greater (and as jews we believe earlier is generally greater) person(s) who could be mashiach so why not them?

Offline AsherO

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2012, 08:15:15 PM »
i admit to ignorance on the detail of mashiach and who can be mashiach. i am also not trying to figure out who mashiach is bec we will never know until he comes. however why assume it is the rebbe? like i said, u can go back to achronim, rishonim, amoraim, taanaim etc or whoever can qualify to be mashiach but i think everyone will agree there was an earlier/greater (and as jews we believe earlier is generally greater) person(s) who could be mashiach so why not them?

I advise you to study first, then ask questions.

Offline asd

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2012, 08:21:52 PM »
while the rebbe was alive there was a strong emotional attachment to his chassidim and he sort of led them on so it was somewhat excusable for them to believe, but once he died it is plain silly to believe and now it has become more of a cult but i spoke to many respected chabad chassidim who strongly believe they made a big mistake and are embarassed by the whole moshiach thing

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2012, 08:23:54 PM »
I advise you to study first, then ask questions.

I always had the same question.

It would be nice to get an answer.

Without all the studies though.

Offline whYME

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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2012, 08:29:27 PM »
As Dan said:
This is a simple outcome of the rebbe-chosid relationship
I hope this doesn't sound too condescending but I'm afraid if you're not a chossid you probably wont "get it"...