Marry Young / Shidduch Crisis

[avromie7]

My cousin just got married at 23 to the first boy who ever gave her a yes. Hard to say no when you're not getting yeses from boys.

Is 23 a tragedy? No. But it's a challenge that is perpetuated by the current system and, empirically, seems to be worsening.

My aunt who is a professional shadchan says she has 30 girls' resumes for each boy. Take that as you will.

This is anecdotal. For every girl who can't get a yes, another girl is getting as many dates as she wants and going out with a different guy twice a week.

I think the reason there are more girls "in shidduchim" may be because there is a larger age gap for starting shidduchim than there is for marriage. If the average girl spends 3 years in shidduchim, and the average boy spends 1, you would expect 3x as many girls in shidduchim at any given time.

[avromie7]

It would indicate that there aren't enough stable, healthy boys.

It's hard to shake the feeling that if the situation was reversed, our society would have moved much more quickly to take action and attempt to address the issue.

Is there any evidence to suggest there are more unstable boys than girls?

[cholent]

This is anecdotal. For every girl who can't get a yes, another girl is getting as many dates as she wants and going out with a different guy twice a week.

I think the reason there are more girls "in shidduchim" may be because there is a larger age gap for starting shidduchim than there is for marriage. If the average girl spends 3 years in shidduchim, and the average boy spends 1, you would expect 3x as many girls in shidduchim at any given time.

Of course it's anecdotal, which is why I specified "empirically"

3x =/ 30x

For every boy who is buried under an avalanche of girls' resumes, how many *healthy* boys do you think are struggling to get a yes?

[Ver hut gazugt]

It would indicate that there aren't enough stable, healthy boys.

It's hard to shake the feeling that if the situation was reversed, our society would have moved much more quickly to take action and attempt to address the issue.

we did have this issue. It was the exact opposite of today, there where not enough frum girls. The solution was to open Jewish girl schools. But don’t make this as if we only care about boys and not girls that is just total none sense.

[cholent]

we did have this issue. It was the exact opposite of today, there where not enough frum girls. The solution was to open Jewish girl schools. But don’t make this as if we only care about boys and not girls that is just total none sense.

No need to exaggerate what I said into something I never did and then call it nonsense (ie straw man alert)

[Just A Jew]

My cousin just got married at 23 to the first boy who ever gave her a yes. Hard to say no when you're not getting yeses from boys.

Is 23 a tragedy? No. But it's a challenge that is perpetuated by the current system and, empirically, seems to be worsening.

You're highlighting results of issues in the current system, which are what they are. I don't dispute the issues. I don't pretend to have any answers, either, because my opinions on what the standards should be are irrelevant to anyone but my own family.

My aunt who is a professional shadchan says she has 30 girls' resumes for each boy. Take that as you will.

That's an interesting anecdote, but I don't know what to do with that information. Is she an outlier, or are the same numbers found by other shadchanim as well? If other shadchanim have more balanced ratios, then she should probably change whatever it is that she doing to collect resumes. If all shadchanim have the same issue, why are boys not submitting resumes? Are they handling the process themselves? Are their mothers handling everything? Do they feel like they don't need to put out resumes because girls will come knocking anyway?

[cholent]

Is there any evidence to suggest there are more unstable boys than girls?

As so many have pointed out on this thread, we have no good data to work with. So without any data, can you imagine a healthy boy in the yeshivish community who feels forced to choose between marrying an unstable girl or possibly staying single forever?

[avromie7]

Of course it's anecdotal, which is why I specified "empirically"

3x =/ 30x

For every boy who is buried under an avalanche of girls' resumes, how many *healthy* boys do you think are struggling to get a yes?

Maybe girls go to more shadchanim. I wonder what would happen if 2 shadchanim catering to the same crowd compared rosters. My guess is the overlap would be higher among girls leading to a perception of even more girls.

[Dan]

My aunt who is a professional shadchan says she has 30 girls' resumes for each boy. Take that as you will.

FWIW:

Checking my memory here.

Picked a random date, September 2011.

857 boys: https://web.archive.org/web/20110926150441/http://lubavitchsingles.com/bochrim/list.html
869 girls: https://web.archive.org/web/20111014032830/http://lubavitchsingles.com/girls/index.html

And this is despite girls going on the list earlier than boys.

I'd like to see hard evidence that the "shortage of boys" is anything but anecdotal. There can be plenty of other reasons for a crisis, including parents, boys, and girls that are too picky and/or are looking for hollywood style love.

Not public anymore that I can find, but I asked the owner of ChabadMatch.com, which is a list accessible by Shadchanim. Singles have to pay a $25 one time membership fee to be listed.

He said they currently have 3,100 Chabad singles, with about a 55-45 ratio of girls to boys.
Yesterday, the 700th single found their bashert via his site since its inception.

I asked about his theory for the ratio and he said, "There are more chassidish girls than chassidish guys, so they are often inundated with suggestions, making them sometimes less likely to register."

[avromie7]

As so many have pointed out on this thread, we have no good data to work with. So without any data, can you imagine a healthy boy in the yeshivish community who feels forced to choose between marrying an unstable girl or possibly staying single forever?

Imagination and feelings have no impact on reality. There can be a million reasons why people feel that way without resorting to an actual shortage of boys.

[Euclid]

we did have this issue. It was the exact opposite of today, there where not enough frum girls. The solution was to open Jewish girl schools. But don’t make this as if we only care about boys and not girls that is just total none sense.

They opened Jewish girls schools without hard data showing that there was an issue?? Making societal changes just on whim?

[jye]

-1000
They were talking about a specific action a father should take for his daughter. Here we are talking about re-engineering God's world.

Everyone can do everything suggested to "solve the shidduch crisis" and you won't be able to point to a single person and say they got married because "we solved the crisis".

-1000 when the ראשונים use the word נוהגים it generally means a minhag that was instituted by and or sanctioned on a communal level by the manhigim. A communal action was taken overhauling long-standing societal  Ormandy to deal with girls who were becoming virtual agunos for lack of Shidduchim.

[UKinNYS]

100% most of the older guys I know (over 25) are burned out by shadchanim and engage with them much less than girls.

Maybe girls go to more shadchanim. I wonder what would happen if 2 shadchanim catering to the same crowd compared rosters. My guess is the overlap would be higher among girls leading to a perception of even more girls.

true.
It may seem counterintuitive but bc the girls seem to be suffering more, a lot of the focus is helping them with programming etc. when in fact it would actually be more impactful to focus on older guys esp. many who are off the radar of the community, which could lead to expanding the pool.

It would indicate that there aren't enough stable, healthy boys.

It's hard to shake the feeling that if the situation was reversed, our society would have moved much more quickly to take action and attempt to address the issue.

[avromie7]

-1000 when the ראשונים use the word נוהגים it generally means a minhag that was instituted by and or sanctioned on a communal level by the manhigim. A communal action was taken overhauling long-standing societal  Ormandy to deal with girls who were becoming virtual agunos for lack of Shidduchim.

The communal action was for each father to take individual action on behalf of his daughter. What's being pushed here is for each person to take action "on behalf on the klal" without a direct benefit to any individual person, only a theoretical benefit to "the klal".

[avromie7]

They opened Jewish girls schools without hard data showing that there was an issue?? Making societal changes just on whim?

Opening Jewish Girls schools is a benefit to each individual girl enrolled in the school.

[Euclid]

Opening Jewish Girls schools is a benefit to each individual girl enrolled in the school.

1) it certainly wasn't clear cut back then. Many people felt that girls shouldn't be educated.

2) as someone with daughters in school, don't get me started about this. Girls' schooling these days is just a pyramid scheme - the vast majority of what they learn is only useful to help their own daughters with homework. But this is a whole other can of worms.

[yitzgar]

Why is the solution always that boys should start younger? Maybe girls should wait to start dating. (According to the age gap theory crowd).

[avromie7]

Why is the solution always that boys should start younger? Maybe girls should wait to start dating. (According to the age gap theory crowd).

This would also help if the age gap is only a dating problem and not a marriage problem.

[imayid2]

The communal action was for each father to take individual action on behalf of his daughter. What's being pushed here is for each person to take action "on behalf on the klal" without a direct benefit to any individual person, only a theoretical benefit to "the klal".

Why is that different?

[avromie7]

Why is that different?

We are supposed to help people, not re-engineer God's world. If God's world changes as we help people that's a side benefit.