Marry Young / Shidduch Crisis

[mevinyavin]

I have mentioned that the first girl I went out with was a year older than me and from divorced parents. Didn't work out.

[aygart]

I remember seeing something about gravity in an argument for G-d's existence. I don't remember it exactly, but the gist was that if there was 1% more or 1% less gravity on Earth, the world would cease to exist. The point was that a creation made so precise could not possibly be random. To reduce shidduchim to percentage points and studies as if something so important to G-d can be manipulated by man by moving some numbers around on a chart is... I don't even have the words.

Maybe it has nothing to do with the numbers and has everything to do with values. What standards are we setting for our kids in shidduchim? What values are we teaching them to look for in a partner? If a person starts being more open to "out there" shidduchim as they get older and they "settle" for someone who they wouldn't have looked at 5-10 years earlier, and ultimately they have a very happy and successful marriage, maybe those standards should have been applied earlier?

Let's say it could be shown that there is something we are doing that is creating a crisis, should just leave it?

[Dan]

Let's say it could be shown that there is something we are doing that is creating a crisis, should just leave it?

Where did he say that? He said the values we're imparting need to be reexamined.

[Just A Jew]

Let's say it could be shown that there is something we are doing that is creating a crisis, should just leave it?

How did you get that question from what I posted? I literally said there are things we should change. I just don't believe studies with statistics showing if there are more boys or girls being born is helpful, nor data on the rising age gaps, nor anything to do with numbers. This isn't a numbers game. G-d created enough people to go around. That we aren't finding the right matches says more about our methodology in matching people than it does about anything else.

[jye]

G-d created enough people to go around.

Too bad the Baalei Hatosfos weren’t on your level of Bitachon.

[yitzgar]

Too bad the Baalei Hatosfos weren’t on your level of Bitachon.

Where do you see anything to do with what he said?

[Just A Jew]

Too bad the Baalei Hatosfos weren’t on your level of Bitachon.

I'm no lamdan, so I may be reading this wrong, but this seems to back up what I'm saying. The concern wasn't about the ratios of boys to girls or the age gaps. It was about the standards of the time (dowry).

[yitzgar]

I'm no lamdan, so I may be reading this wrong, but this seems to back up what I'm saying. The concern wasn't about the ratios of boys to girls or the age gaps. It was about the standards of the time (dowry).

The boys were clearly much older...but it's silly to compare to 800 years ago

[jye]

Where do you see anything to do with what he said?

Why not trust that the Ribbono shel olam created a zivug for every girl instead of being over on an issur dirabanan out of desperation?

[aygart]

Question:

How did you get that question from what I posted?

Answer:

I just don't believe studies with statistics showing if there are more boys or girls being born is helpful, nor data on the rising age gaps, nor anything to do with numbers. This isn't a numbers game. G-d created enough people to go around. That we aren't finding the right matches says more about our methodology in matching people than it does about anything else.

[Just A Jew]

Why not trust that the Ribbono shel olam created a zivug for every girl instead of being over on an issur dirabanan out of desperation?

Why is that a contradiction? There is no concern that there is no zivug. There is a concern that people set standards which will result in unmarried girls. I take 2 things from the Tosafos. 1) Shidduchim is so important, that we risk being oiver an issue d'rabanan to make sure girls are married. 2) Societal standards are so important that they can change the course of accepted norms regarding halacha. This speaks the importance of setting and regulating communal standards and combating any craziness which may set in.

(Tosafos is also not a history book. While they may note the custom to ignore the issur as a result of the prevailing standards at the time, they don't document what steps were taken on a societal level to set reasonable standards or to change them over time. I don't know enough about the era to comment on whether the standards were reasonable or what debates or opinions were posed by leaders at the time for or against the status quo.)

[Just A Jew]

Question:

Answer:

Sorry, I'm still not understanding your posts. You're asking what if there is data in the studies which will show us that we're doing something wrong. What can we change? Genetically engineer our women to have specific gender children to keep the ratios equal? Force people into bad marriages just to keep our prefered age gaps intact? Again, I don't believe this is an issue which statistics will solve.

[avromie7]

I remember seeing something about gravity in an argument for G-d's existence. I don't remember it exactly, but the gist was that if there was 1% more or 1% less gravity on Earth, the world would cease to exist. The point was that a creation made so precise could not possibly be random. To reduce shidduchim to percentage points and studies as if something so important to G-d can be manipulated by man by moving some numbers around on a chart is... I don't even have the words.

Maybe it has nothing to do with the numbers and has everything to do with values. What standards are we setting for our kids in shidduchim? What values are we teaching them to look for in a partner? If a person starts being more open to "out there" shidduchim as they get older and they "settle" for someone who they wouldn't have looked at 5-10 years earlier, and ultimately they have a very happy and successful marriage, maybe those standards should have been applied earlier?

My post wasn't clear, I agree with you. I'm not C"V questioning God on why he didn't tweak it. I'm saying our calculations only need to be tweaked a little bit for "all the numbers to work". Therefore, my presumption is God has it all figured out, and he tweaked everything as needed to make the numbers work.

If we decide to start adjusting it ourselves, we run the risk of unintended consequences.

[Just A Jew]

My post wasn't clear, I agree with you. I'm not C"V questioning God on why he didn't tweak it. I'm saying our calculations only need to be tweaked a little bit for "all the numbers to work". Therefore, my presumption is God has it all figured out, and he tweaked everything as needed to make the numbers work.

If we decide to start adjusting it ourselves, we run the risk of unintended consequences.

My post quoted you, but it was really a comment on the entire discussion of ratios and statistics. I think it's irrelevant.

[avromie7]

Too bad the Baalei Hatosfos weren’t on your level of Bitachon.

-1000
They were talking about a specific action a father should take for his daughter. Here we are talking about re-engineering God's world.

Everyone can do everything suggested to "solve the shidduch crisis" and you won't be able to point to a single person and say they got married because "we solved the crisis".

[cholent]

I remember seeing something about gravity in an argument for G-d's existence. I don't remember it exactly, but the gist was that if there was 1% more or 1% less gravity on Earth, the world would cease to exist. The point was that a creation made so precise could not possibly be random. To reduce shidduchim to percentage points and studies as if something so important to G-d can be manipulated by man by moving some numbers around on a chart is... I don't even have the words.

Maybe it has nothing to do with the numbers and has everything to do with values. What standards are we setting for our kids in shidduchim? What values are we teaching them to look for in a partner? If a person starts being more open to "out there" shidduchim as they get older and they "settle" for someone who they wouldn't have looked at 5-10 years earlier, and ultimately they have a very happy and successful marriage, maybe those standards should have been applied earlier?

Except that what actually happens is that many girls settle instead for someone with middos issues/ personality disorders/ no chemistry and have unhappy (or worse) marriages because they want children.

[Just A Jew]

Except that what actually happens is that many girls settle instead for someone with middos issues/ personality disorders/ no chemistry and have unhappy (or worse) marriages because they want children.

And how many shidduchim did they turn down which could have avoided these issues because of other, less important standards that were set earlier in the process?

[cholent]

And how many shidduchim did they turn down which could have avoided these issues because of other, less important standards that were set earlier in the process?

My cousin just got married at 23 to the first boy who ever gave her a yes. Hard to say no when you're not getting yeses from boys.

Is 23 a tragedy? No. But it's a challenge that is perpetuated by the current system and, empirically, seems to be worsening.

My aunt who is a professional shadchan says she has 30 girls' resumes for each boy. Take that as you will.

[avromie7]

Except that what actually happens is that many girls settle instead for someone with middos issues/ personality disorders/ no chemistry and have unhappy (or worse) marriages because they want children.

This would indicate that there isn't a shortage of boys.

[cholent]

This would indicate that there isn't a shortage of boys.

It would indicate that there aren't enough stable, healthy boys.

It's hard to shake the feeling that if the situation was reversed, our society would have moved much more quickly to take action and attempt to address the issue.