Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[mevinyavin]

Are people buying from random home made shops without knowing who is making it? Or are they buying from "Mrs so and so, her husband is in Rabbi Berkowitzs kollel"

I'm not sure what type of products we're discussing, I thought it's prepackaged on a shelf.

Walk into an American-style store in Jlem, there are often products on the shelf listing 'all ingredients are Badatz' and maybe a phone number. That's one product.
Open an advertising magazine in Jlem and there will be seven caterers advertising various products with 'all ingredients Badatz' (and in one case, 'except for J&J cream cheese'). This is very common, at least here.
RYBs is not saying that it is ossur to buy from them if you know them, but he is saying that he holds you can't have a business selling like that, because people who do not have the right to buy (according to him) will be buying from you. You solve this (and some do) by getting a small, cheap hashgacha. That eliminates the 'lifnei iver.' Maybe after that you can say that 'all ingredients are Badatz' - though Rabbi Berkovit's hechsher got upset at that because THEY allowed more than Badatz and that was all they were certifying.
I used an established, well-known and widely trusted caterer for my bris. They were certified by Rabbi Wiener. I don't eat his hashgacha if I can help it (but will eat it lemaan hasholom), but I asked her to use only Badatz and that was enough. (She said okay but the orange juice will be Rubin.) I had looked into her and a bunch of people who knew her personally said she was trustworthy. A few other things I wanted, and she said Rabbi Wiener doesn't allow it, which I was happy to hear and obey.

[yfr bachur]

Walk into an American-style store in Jlem, there are often products on the shelf listing 'all ingredients are Badatz' and maybe a phone number. That's one product.
Open an advertising magazine in Jlem and there will be seven caterers advertising various products with 'all ingredients Badatz' (and in one case, 'except for J&J cream cheese'). This is very common, at least here.

Or what was referenced at the kashrus panel at last years aguda convention:
Party planners sourcing from all sorts of uncertified home businesses - the Baal Simcha (the purchaser) often has no idea where the PP is getting from...

(this may be debatable as you could claim that the PP is an EA, and she has the right to order from people she knows and trusts - but in practice this is probably not exactly what happens rather the PP gets to know the suppliers bec their fashionable and she's ordering from them so at least the first bunch of orders from a particular supplier would be frowned upon by at least RYB - and I dont know how much people "know and trust" PPs more that they "know of and trust" their party planning skills - like "I've heard Mrs. Plonis is a great party planner" ≠ I "know and trust" their kashrus bonafides...

But this line of reasoning leads to - why cant you trust the owner, who you know, of the "American-style store in Jlem" that the products he's selling from unknown home businesses are from people HE trusts? though this wont help for buying directly or catering @mevinyavin You have any idea what RYB would say?).

[imayid2]

Essentially yes, though I submit that Chazal are ok with it too. That's why they allowed one eid.

Nemanus does not mean compromise of halachos that you think are important in your own home. It means you don’t need to suspect he’s flat out lying to you, nowhere is it indicated that it’s anything more than that.

[moko]

Nemanus does not mean compromise of halachos that you think are important in your own home. It means you don’t need to suspect he’s flat out lying to you, nowhere is it indicated that it’s anything more than that.

-.5....
Y"D 119.
1. Chashud can mean even if your makpid but are chashud to sell, even out if carelessness....

2. Chashud means chashud ldvar issur . Not only chashud to lie.

I don't have a shua in front of me right now, but see the last se'if (20?) Even things that the oilam is noiheg to be machmir on (I believe the given examples is gevinas akum - excuse me- non hekcherd cheese is the polite vernacular in progressive judiasm)

[Yehuda57]

Nemanus does not mean compromise of halachos that you think are important in your own home. It means you don’t need to suspect he’s flat out lying to you, nowhere is it indicated that it’s anything more than that.

And again. Only dealing with willful deceit.

[moko]

And again. Only dealing with willful deceit.

nope.... Careless as well

[imayid2]

-.5....
Y"D 119.
1. Chashud can mean even if your makpid but are chashud to sell, even out if carelessness....

2. Chashud means chashud ldvar issur . Not only chashud to lie.

I don't have a shua in front of me right now, but see the last se'if (20?) Even things that the oilam is noiheg to be machmir on (I believe the given examples is gevinas akum - excuse me- non hekcherd cheese is the polite vernacular in progressive judiasm)

I’m referring to the core of EA, those are exceptions.

[moko]

I’m referring to the core of EA, those are exceptions.

let's re-focus the whole conversation.... This conversation is really about Y"D 119 all the exceptions to E"E....
Also machlokes rishonim if E"E requires someone to be Micheal and what the parameters of muchzak are are also up for debate.
Based on the ads in Jewish publications, I don't think most people purchasing from said businesses are familiar with the owners whatsoever.

[imayid2]

let's re-focus the whole conversation.... This conversation is really about Y"D 119 all the exceptions to E"E....
Also machlokes rishonim if E"E requires someone to be Micheal and what the parameters of muchzak are are also up for debate.
Based on the ads in Jewish publications, I don't think most people purchasing from said businesses are familiar with the owners whatsoever.

119 is a distraction imo. Muchzak bkashrus is a very low bar to meet. It’s more about expertise necessary for a specific situation which isn’t covered by EE. As well as being aware of lower standards/ kulos being used.

[imayid2]

Also machlokes rishonim if E"E requires someone to be Micheal and what the parameters of muchzak are are also up for debate.

?

[imayid2]

Based on the ads in Jewish publications, I don't think most people purchasing from said businesses are familiar with the owners whatsoever.

People can ask around and find out if the owner is a frum yid. I assume you’d agree it would still be an issue. Because that’s a halachik technicality, not the real issue which affects those who are “muchzek bkashrus” the same way.

Today’s concerns aren’t about being suspect on לפני עור as described in 119, with is willfully feeding someone treif because you don’t keep that issur or are only makpid on the issur for yourself, not for לפני עור.
CMIIW.

[moko]

119 is a distraction imo. Muchzak bkashrus is a very low bar to meet. It’s more about expertise necessary for a specific situation which isn’t covered by EE. As well as being aware of lower standards/ kulos being used.

shall we talk about the frum parlor meetings at which non kosher fish was served at the sushi bar? Or the rampant Bishul akum because no one thought it's an issue to have the domestic help do the omelette station or a well known yeshiva hall that frum caterers did 'drop off catering ' with omelette stations and the host supplied the waiters to man the stations.
119 is definitely discussing will full ignorance and a cavalier attitude towards halacha otherwise known as an am haaretz or someone who's not nizhar

[aygart]

119 is definitely discussing will full ignorance and a cavalier attitude towards halacha otherwise known as an am haaretz or someone who's not nizhar

See ShaCh 20

[imayid2]

shall we talk about the frum parlor meetings at which non kosher fish was served at the sushi bar? Or the rampant Bishul akum because no one thought it's an issue to have the domestic help do the omelette station or a well known yeshiva hall that frum caterers did 'drop off catering ' with omelette stations and the host supplied the waiters to man the stations.

I assume those in charge were not known to eat non kosher fish or not be makpid on bishul akum. So as per 119 why shouldn’t they have been נאמן?

119 is definitely discussing will full ignorance and a cavalier attitude towards halacha otherwise known as an am haaretz or someone who's not nizhar

Which specific Halacha are you referring to?

[aygart]

I assume those in charge were not known to eat non kosher fish or not be makpid on bishul akum.

I'm sure they eat Wise potato chips, Pringles, and Rice Krispies

[mevinyavin]

...
But this line of reasoning leads to - why cant you trust the owner, who you know, of the "American-style store in Jlem" that the products he's selling from unknown home businesses are from people HE trusts? though this wont help for buying directly or catering @mevinyavin You have any idea what RYB would say?).

RYBs emphasized that an eid (if indeed kosher) is only neeman to say what he says. Did you ask him? Maybe he thinks it is fine to sell from random Yidden even though he doesn't know them - in fact, that probably is the case. Moreover - more importantly - the store owner is SELLING food and does NOT have a hechsher. According to RYB, he doesn't have neemonus on anything not already sealed with a hechsher... which means the conversation doesn't start until you KNOW him well, and RYB doesn't approve of him selling such food and calls it lifnei iver (though the guy in question probably never heard of the sugya so it probably isn't a reiyisa on him for other things).

Anecdotally - the shul allows home product to be served at a shul event if it can be ascertained that they only use Eida, Rubin, Sheeris and Landau. Naturally, people send home-baked goods to the baal simcha. We tell the baal simcha that he can either ask the one who made the cake or he can't send it. This is a very low bar, but again, RYB said we CAN trust home Yidden giving food for free - he just says to use caution. Still, I am aware that people place their trust in me when I make a simcha, and as such, I leave nearly all of this stuff at home. (Some stuff is beyond reproach for various reasons, and that I serve. Maybe I'll post my criteria at some point.) At home I am more chilled. What I did at the sholom zochor I made recently was that I periodically announced that the unlabeled stuff was Eida, and everything home baked was labeled with the note it came with. Everyone was welcome to determine on a house by house basis what they were willing to eat.

[159dallas]

On a AA domestic flight (DFW-EWR) and this is what I got for a can of soda... any ideas of the kashrus of it[img]https://d2i4gfgit2b694.cloudfront.net/ddf/attachment/af34ca86-963a-41cf-9b07-7677ed8aa398.jpeg[/img

I would assume japan

[Essen est zich]

From Rabbi Nathanson regarding Nature's Bakery Gluten Free products:

"I was just assigned to one of their plants and today I was able to go thru the production process in person with their staff. The oats are in the filling, not the dough, so there is _no pas yisroel issue_."

[chessman1]

From Rabbi Nathanson regarding Nature's Bakery Gluten Free products:

"I was just assigned to one of their plants and today I was able to go thru the production process in person with their staff. The oats are in the filling, not the dough, so there is _no pas yisroel issue_."

So they are in fact pas nisht 

[avromie7]

Walk into an American-style store in Jlem, there are often products on the shelf listing 'all ingredients are Badatz' and maybe a phone number. That's one product.
Open an advertising magazine in Jlem and there will be seven caterers advertising various products with 'all ingredients Badatz' (and in one case, 'except for J&J cream cheese'). This is very common, at least here.
RYBs is not saying that it is ossur to buy from them if you know them, but he is saying that he holds you can't have a business selling like that, because people who do not have the right to buy (according to him) will be buying from you. You solve this (and some do) by getting a small, cheap hashgacha. That eliminates the 'lifnei iver.' Maybe after that you can say that 'all ingredients are Badatz' - though Rabbi Berkovit's hechsher got upset at that because THEY allowed more than Badatz and that was all they were certifying.
I used an established, well-known and widely trusted caterer for my bris. They were certified by Rabbi Wiener. I don't eat his hashgacha if I can help it (but will eat it lemaan hasholom), but I asked her to use only Badatz and that was enough. (She said okay but the orange juice will be Rubin.) I had looked into her and a bunch of people who knew her personally said she was trustworthy. A few other things I wanted, and she said Rabbi Wiener doesn't allow it, which I was happy to hear and obey.

It sounds like you don't have an eid echad unless you know or research who made the product or who this caterer is. I don't think that is common in The US. People selling home made baked goods is much more common and sales are typically done by word of mouth.