Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[imayid2]

that is not the simple reading of RMA YD119:7 (see ShaCh 20 there)

Not the same if he thinks there is no validity to it, it can’t be called a michshal.

[aygart]

Ironically someone who keeps CY as a chumra may have a bigger issue assuming the guy will accommodate his chumra.

That would be the RMA או מכח חומרא שהחמיר על עצמו

[Chuchum Ainer]

I dont buy that the kashrus problems of today is worse than the times of chazal. Especially when they were in Eretz yisroel.

When in the "times of chazal...in Eretz Yisroel," a chaver did not eat in an am haaretz's home. A chaver needed someone he knew and trusted as a chaver to tell him whose house he could eat in... And someone selling something was not (necessarily) trusted...
https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Demai.2.2
https://www.sefaria.org/Bekhorot.30b.12
https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Demai.4.7

[avromie7]

If he knows that you don't eat cholov stam then we assume that he won't give it to you to eat. (although part of the controversies with R Abadi was that he didn't do this. So I guess if Rav Abadi gave you a random piece of gum, are you allowed to eat it?)

Harav Reuven Feinstein would eat it.

[avromie7]

You've posted this a few times and continuously fail to address the actual points being made. The eid echad is neeman as to what s/he is being meid about. If a hechsher or individual doesn't maintain certain standards that I do, and that hechsher says something is kosher, I'm not going against eid echad if I don't eat it, they are neeman that it is kosher *according to their standards*. It's not about distrust of a friend, it's more like "when someone shows you you who they are, believe them."

If someone is passionate about the heterim for chalav stam and thinks I'm being ridiculous for being makpid on Chalav Yisroel, an I going against this psak if I don't eat in his house when he assures me the food is "100% kosher"?

As long as your definition of kashrus is "standards", you will fail to understand.

[aygart]

Harav Reuven Feinstein would say you can.

I understand that possibility (although I don't remember it in what he wrote, I didn't re-read it now) and it is a very big chiddush and seems to be against ShaCh 119:20 and others. This is a great example of how his opinion is the outlier.

[imayid2]

That would be the RMA או מכח חומרא שהחמיר על עצמו

Agree, if he knows you’re machmir.

[aygart]

Agree, if he knows you’re machmir.

That is not how I understood this conversation since I had started off by saying that I was referring to a case where he knows,.

If he knows that you don't eat cholov stam then we assume that he won't give it to you to eat. (although part of the controversies with R Abadi was that he didn't do this. So I guess if Rav Abadi gave you a random piece of gum, are you allowed to eat it?)

I’m not sure if this applies to someone who believes the whole chumra is ridiculous and a mistake.

If there was someone who I knew was makpid on worms in fish I wouldn't give him herring or wild salmon.

Lol
But that doesn’t mean he can assume that without asking. Unless he knows you well enough to know that.

[imayid2]

Harav Reuven Feinstein would eat it.

Iirc he writes (or has said) that he wouldn’t eat in a yungerman in Lakewoods house who isn’t makpid on zeiya in their ovens.

What’s the difference?

[ExGingi]

When in the "times of chazal...in Eretz Yisroel," a chaver did not eat in an am haaretz's home. A chaver needed someone he knew and trusted as a chaver to tell him whose house he could eat in... And someone selling something was not (necessarily) trusted...
https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Demai.2.2
https://www.sefaria.org/Bekhorot.30b.12
https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Demai.4.7

I don't think there would be many who would qualify as a Chaver nowadays if a similar standard were to be applied.

[aygart]

I don't think there would be many who would qualify as a Chaver nowadays if a similar standard were to be applied.

There would not be, but demai was a specific gezeira despite rov amei haaretz measrin.

[yfr bachur]

I don't think there would be many who would qualify as a Chaver nowadays if a similar standard were to be applied.

So basically (if we said such standards/takanos apply today too - at least in EY) If you're a chaver (or consider yourself such) you cant eat anywhere (
but if you're an am ha'aretz you can eat by anyone and just rely on EA?

[imayid2]

This Radvaz I presume:
https://www.kosharot.co.il/%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%AA

https://www.kosharot.co.il/%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%AA

הרדב"ז[23] התקשה מדוע חכמים גזרו שלא יהיו עמי הארץ נאמנים על תרומות ומעשרות, והרי 'עד אחד נאמן באיסורים'? בתירוצו הוא עומד על עקרון חשוב:

שלא נחשדו עמי הארץ למכור אלא דבר שהם חושבין שהוא מותר, כגון דמאי, אבל דבר שהוא אסור לכל מן הדין לא נחשדו עליו.[24]

כלומר, נאמנות 'עד אחד נאמן באיסורים' שייכת דווקא כאשר ברור לנו שהמעיד בקי בכל פרטי ההלכה והמציאות, אך כאשר ייתכן שהוא אינו בקי בכך – איננו יכולים להיות בטוחים שהמוצר אכן כשר.

כשרות בבית עסק היא נושא מסובך הכולל פרטים רבים, המחייבים בקיאות וידע רב, התעדכנות בנבכי הכשרות והתמקצעות בתחום זה. לכן גם לשיטות הסוברות שכל אדם נאמן בכך, עלינו לחשוש שגם אם אינו משקר במזיד, הוא אינו מודע לכל ההלכות, עדכוני הכשרות והשלכותיהם למעשה, משום כך ישנו צורך בהעמדת משגיח שלמד והתמקצע בכך.[25]

[Yehuda57]

As long as your definition of kashrus is "standards", you will fail to understand.

I would describe this post, but you wouldn't understand what condescending means, would you? 

My entire childhood was hearing my father answer shaalos of kashrus from Jews across the entire spectrum of Jewish observance (literally). So yeah, maybe hearing him enthusuastically tell one person, "enjoy it! it's 100% ok" and then 5 minutes later tell someone else the exact same product is problematic somehow colored my view of kashrus as "standards" and I fail to appreciate its true meaning. OTOH, maybe I do have a bit of an understanding of what kashrus is and the vast spectrum of opinions that there are, as well as the vast amount of ignorance, allbeit well intentioned? Perhaps I'm not coming at this discussion from a narrow view of people trying to outchumrah each other?
 
For the purposes of discussion, things need to be distilled or classified. The only way you can have any sort of neemanus is with highly systemized procedures and, well, standards, as explained above eloquently by @moko.

[yfr bachur]

The crying shame is that as a young bachur (just after I started dorming - 12th grade or so) I asked this exact shayla to my Rav (The Baadei Hashulchan Ztz"l) while walking him home shabbos morning.
When I eat out by s/o's house on shaboos do I need to be makpid on all standards we keep at home - hechsherim, the works... or do I just trust that what he puts in front of me is kosher...
But while asking the question I made the mistake of saying that he had said not to use particular hechsher...
To which he objected "I said no such thing" - and then my father clarified that he had said "better to find a better hechsher" which the Rav was maskin he had said.
But the rest of the walk revolved round discussing the importance of accurately saying over psakim - and I never got the answer to my shayla... 

[mevinyavin]

To clarify: The psak I mentioned refers to SELLING food. I also mentioned above regarding trusting someone who is NOT SELLING you food - and he said that you have a RIGHT to trust them (you do - that he was clear on) but practically you should be careful, for the reasons listed above in my post.

This is the text of the psak regarding SELLERS:

[avromie7]

To clarify: The psak I mentioned refers to SELLING food. I also mentioned above regarding trusting someone who is NOT SELLING you food - and he said that you have a RIGHT to trust them (you do - that he was clear on) but practically you should be careful, for the reasons listed above in my post.

This is the text of the psak regarding SELLERS:

This makes a lot more sense. Selling anonymously in a store is not eidus. Your typical home based business is.

[imayid2]

This makes a lot more sense. Selling anonymously in a store is not eidus. Your typical home based business is.

That’s not what it says. It says, as per the Remah, you need to know that the guy is מוחזק בכשרות. But I agree that that’s easy to meet when you know the guy as a religious Jew.

[moko]

This makes a lot more sense. Selling anonymously in a store is not eidus. Your typical home based business is.

if you don't know the person, and to you their both anonymous, what's the difference?

[ushdadude]

A lot of this was discussed (and is relevant) here:

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=130106.0