Topic Wiki

https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/

https://www.mixcloud.com/zev-brenner/talkline-with-zev-brenner-on-credit-card-scams-affecting-the-orthodox-jewish-community/

http://podcast.headlinesbook.com/e/31616-credit-card-miles-and-points-swiping-for-rewards-buying-and-selling-miles-is-it-assur-and-a-chillul-hashem-or-a-great-way-for-a-side-parnassah/



BEFORE SWIPING FOR SOMEONE READ THIS: (first hand story)

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=36812.msg2062371#msg2062371
https://www.dansdeals.com/more/dans-commentary/dark-side-earning-credit-card-points-psa-dont-swipe-others/#comment-1399884


Dan's warning to DDF:
I hope people realize that any buying group or anyone else that gets merchandise in advance of payment can go south at any time. That's even if you get a check at the time of delivery.
X-posting as I don't want anyone to say that I never put a warning here.

A story that ended up in court - https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/DocumentList?docketId=iRcRHuyZUdOIx69D00a5XQ==&display=all&courtType=Kings%20County%20Supreme%20Court&resultsPageNum=1


I am one of the biggest buyers for buying groups, I have done millions in transactions and have sent to every group there is over the past 3 years. Most buying groups are okay, some scan in slower than others, some pay slower than others - most will lose a few packages over the year. You can research and find which are better for you.

However there is a bigger problem now with Amazon itself.  Amazon in the past has been great with any problems always ready with a refund for lost packages even if it was thousands of dollars. Lately Amazon has clamped down and has tagged these buying groups addresses  in their systems as "freight forwarder" and now no longer will fix any problem you have whatsoever. Doesn't matter what the problem is, even if it shows the package was never delivered, amazon will not help you in any way. Their copy and paste response will always be "this item was sent to a freight forwarder and we're unable to replace or refund the item. We recommend contacting your freight forwarder for more details, as we don't have any more insight or information regarding this matter, For more information about sending items via freight forwarders, please visit our Help Pages: https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201117950." As well the amazon drivers either must know this or have been increasingly bad at delivering packages because the numbers of packages missing has gone up astronomically. Previously you would have very few packages missing, now the past 3 months I have had 59 "lost" packages. I now have over $15,000 of loses and some guy in Delaware is probably living the life with all the stuff he stole from me. I will survive, I have made a lot more than $15,000 over the years however just a warning to others here that things are not as they used to be and it really is no longer worth doing buring groups with all the loses piling up

« Last edited by Yo ssi on July 24, 2023, 06:47:26 PM »

Author Topic: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others  (Read 1490230 times)

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7649
  • Total likes: 303
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #100 on: January 04, 2014, 11:38:25 PM »
Who holds like that?!? All the modern poskim learn that borrowing someone's cc is like borrowing directly from the lender, not the bank, hence Ribbis accrued cannot be paid.
Not true. See relevant discussion here: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24911.msg407377#msg407377

Offline Yungerman

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Oct 2010
  • Posts: 249
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #101 on: January 05, 2014, 12:38:25 AM »
Not true. See relevant discussion here: http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=24911.msg407377#msg407377

You're bringing a page of forum discussion with hardly any sources to disprove the consensus of poskim who hold that using someone's credit card is defined as borrowing from them with all its halachic ramifications?!

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7649
  • Total likes: 303
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #102 on: January 05, 2014, 01:03:57 AM »
You're bringing a page of forum discussion with hardly any sources to disprove the consensus of poskim who hold that using someone's credit card is defined as borrowing from them with all its halachic ramifications?!
On the other hand, you're bringing a "consensus" out of arguably thin air.

Read the discussion, it has a pretty thorough analysis of the technical differences between a CC and a check/dc in halacha.
You check the current "modern" sources. Look in seforim on hilchos ribis, kidushin, tzedaka, mishloach Monos etc. Let us know what you find!

(In a Beis din for sure your consensus wouldn't hold up. Its neged hasvara vehametzius imho)

Offline Yungerman

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Oct 2010
  • Posts: 249
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #103 on: January 05, 2014, 01:49:04 AM »
On the other hand, you're bringing a "consensus" out of arguably thin air.

Read the discussion, it has a pretty thorough analysis of the technical differences between a CC and a check/dc in halacha.
You check the current "modern" sources. Look in seforim on hilchos ribis, kidushin, tzedaka, mishloach Monos etc. Let us know what you find!

(In a Beis din for sure your consensus wouldn't hold up. Its neged hasvara vehametzius imho)
By "modern" I obviously was referring to rabbonim moirei hoiro'o who wrote about the subject of credit cards since their relatively recent reception into society.  Regarding ribbis, the consensus of those seforim are indeed that only the account holder is borrowing directly from the card issuer, not one who's borrowing it from the account holder. In that case, halacha views it that the lender/account-holder borrows from bank and then subsequently gives the money to the borrower. If the borrower doesn't pay on time or only pays the minimum payment, thereby causing interest to accrue, he isn't even allowed to pay directly to the bank the interest.

Regarding bais din, most rabbonim sitting on one would pasken as above.


Offline Ergel

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 13151
  • Total likes: 985
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #104 on: January 05, 2014, 01:52:29 AM »
On the other hand, you're bringing a "consensus" out of arguably thin air.

Read the discussion, it has a pretty thorough analysis of the technical differences between a CC and a check/dc in halacha.
You check the current "modern" sources. Look in seforim on hilchos ribis, kidushin, tzedaka, mishloach Monos etc. Let us know what you find!

(In a Beis din for sure your consensus wouldn't hold up. Its neged hasvara vehametzius imho)
Do you have a single posek who corroborates what you said in that thread?
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline rots5

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 8005
  • Total likes: 33
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 17
    • View Profile
    • Custom Cakes for Every Occassion
  • Location: Monsey
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #105 on: January 05, 2014, 02:21:14 AM »
By "modern" I obviously was referring to rabbonim moirei hoiro'o who wrote about the subject of credit cards since their relatively recent reception into society.  Regarding ribbis, the consensus of those seforim are indeed that only the account holder is borrowing directly from the card issuer, not one who's borrowing it from the account holder. In that case, halacha views it that the lender/account-holder borrows from bank and then subsequently gives the money to the borrower. If the borrower doesn't pay on time or only pays the minimum payment, thereby causing interest to accrue, he isn't even allowed to pay directly to the bank the interest.

Regarding bais din, most rabbonim sitting on one would pasken as above.


if im following a correctly, youngerman is stating that if someone lent another guy his cc and didnt pay it back then the lender has to pay the intrest (late payment fees) and not the borrower....

this is 100% true!
If you have any questions please search and then ask. PM me for detailed help.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7649
  • Total likes: 303
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #106 on: January 05, 2014, 07:13:25 AM »
Do you have a single posek who corroborates what you said in that thread?
not of hand. I have to remember which seforim I saw at the time...i will bln post when i find. I can assure you this, there ain't no consensus either way.

The concept is simple, merchants have an agreement with visa and banks that they will get paid by them for an approved swipe.
There is a totally separate agreement where the CC company will bill you for amounts charged. Agreement A is not dependent on the fulfilment of agreement B.
This is at best an eved kenani situation between the consumer and the merchant.


Disclaimer:
I have no idea how this affects hilchos ribbis. I'm just pointing out the glaring differences mentioned by poskim in other contexts.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 07:18:00 AM by churnbabychurn »

Offline dbel23

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 129
  • Total likes: 0
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Miami
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #107 on: January 05, 2014, 12:23:46 PM »
There are 5 examples in section 2 of this page, though txtmax's example is not one of them.

i see... thanks anyway

Offline skyguy918

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 4111
  • Total likes: 890
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Queens, NY
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #108 on: January 05, 2014, 12:52:40 PM »
not of hand. I have to remember which seforim I saw at the time...i will bln post when i find. I can assure you this, there ain't no consensus either way.

The concept is simple, merchants have an agreement with visa and banks that they will get paid by them for an approved swipe.
There is a totally separate agreement where the CC company will bill you for amounts charged. Agreement A is not dependent on the fulfilment of agreement B.
This is at best an eved kenani situation between the consumer and the merchant.


Disclaimer:
I have no idea how this affects hilchos ribbis. I'm just pointing out the glaring differences mentioned by poskim in other contexts.
What does this have to do with the topic at hand? If anything, you're just breaking a cc transaction into more transactions, which reinforces the point that the 'swiper' is borrowing from you, not the cc company.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7649
  • Total likes: 303
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #109 on: January 05, 2014, 01:03:14 PM »
What does this have to do with the topic at hand? If anything, you're just breaking a cc transaction into more transactions, which reinforces the point that the 'swiper' is borrowing from you, not the cc company.
the point is that the swiper is receiving money from the CC company. Not from the owner of the credit card. He is merely incidental to the transaction.

Offline yhakak

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Posts: 200
  • Total likes: 3
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Jerusalem, Israel
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #110 on: January 05, 2014, 01:44:15 PM »
I would disagree, for the simple reason that if the owner of the card contested the charge and told the cc company they let someone else use their card, their funds would not be returned. Ergo, the owner of the card is taking a risk, which makes him a party to the transaction.

the point is that the swiper is receiving money from the CC company. Not from the owner of the credit card. He is merely incidental to the transaction.


Offline dans fan

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Feb 2011
  • Posts: 1295
  • Total likes: 2
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #111 on: January 05, 2014, 05:35:12 PM »
Who holds like that?!? All the modern poskim learn that borrowing someone's cc is like borrowing directly from the lender, not the bank, hence Ribbis accrued cannot be paid.
you are mixing up hilchos ribis (yoreh daiah) with choshen mispat, many say that the one who used the credidit card cannot pay the ribis that is a isur veheter so lechumra you may not pay ribis but choshen  mishpat is different. for ex. mr A uses mr B credit card without permission then the credit card holder didnt borrow from bank and re lend it, so its not because its your account that its a automatic borrow and relend. but more because you mean to borrow and re lend, and that can be debated when you mean to borrow for ex. in our case many would never do a cash advance and then lend the cash to these scammers so you may not mean to borrow and relend, there are other reasons olso , the main point is in choshen mishpat if its not 100% clear he can alwys say kim li its very hard to be motzi money from someone not looking to pay back

Offline yzj

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 646
  • Total likes: 373
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: usa
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #112 on: January 07, 2014, 12:17:03 AM »
Interesting. There are THREE separate ads in the Lakewood publications promising to make you thousands of dollars if you haven't had an Amex business card in the last 12 months and promising that they will take care of getting you approved and doing all the spending. There was even a glossy poster on the BMG bulletin board. hundreds of cards that are under financial review from these guy and they just keep going at it. Unbelievable. Talk about painting a big red target on Lakewood.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7649
  • Total likes: 303
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #113 on: January 07, 2014, 12:28:00 AM »
Interesting. There are THREE separate ads in the Lakewood publications promising to make you thousands of dollars if you haven't had an Amex business card in the last 12 months and promising that they will take care of getting you approved and doing all the spending. There was even a glossy poster on the BMG bulletin board. hundreds of cards that are under financial review from these guy and they just keep going at it. Unbelievable. Talk about painting a big red target on Lakewood.
the full page "we can make your Shul 100k" ad is crazy.
 Imho someone's gonna get into real serious trouble .....this is abuse on a major scale.

Offline avremie

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Posts: 942
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: milky way
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #114 on: January 07, 2014, 01:04:12 AM »
I was once in Manhattan Friday afternoon many years ago doing my rounds and a guy came over to me with some story that his car is in a lot and he has no money to get in back and he needs to go somewhere for shabbos and much more.... I gave him some money then I found out he's doing this for a long time and preying on young unsuspecting bochrim he's still out there as far as last year.
I think it would be good if people write the nature of their story so people would realize how they are being fooled or manipulated

Offline avremie

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Posts: 942
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: milky way
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #115 on: January 07, 2014, 01:06:47 AM »
Interesting. There are THREE separate ads in the Lakewood publications promising to make you thousands of dollars if you haven't had an Amex business card in the last 12 months and promising that they will take care of getting you approved and doing all the spending. There was even a glossy poster on the BMG bulletin board. hundreds of cards that are under financial review from these guy and they just keep going at it. Unbelievable. Talk about painting a big red target on Lakewood.
so its not anti semitism when they go after a whole Jewish community

Offline Freddie

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 3248
  • Total likes: 311
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Pittsburgh
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #116 on: January 07, 2014, 01:22:27 AM »
the full page "we can make your Shul 100k" ad is crazy.
 Imho someone's gonna get into real serious trouble .....this is abuse on a major scale.

Someone explain to me, what's the kuntz? How do they make money? If they are giving the "100k" (I assume points) to the shul? Do they charge? I don't get how their scheme works. Or are they stam identity thieves?

I just want to understand the game they're playing.

Also, how the heck are they getting 100k MRs from any Amex bonus available today? I know of no such bonus. Not even close.

Please explain to me. This stuff is like my version of watching Law and Order.

Offline avremie

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Posts: 942
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: milky way
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #117 on: January 07, 2014, 01:26:06 AM »
Can someone post  copy of the ad for the non-lakewood Jews

Offline Joe4007

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2013
  • Posts: 4120
  • Total likes: 167
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #118 on: January 07, 2014, 01:42:32 AM »
Someone explain to me, what's the kuntz? How do they make money? If they are giving the "100k" (I assume points) to the shul? Do they charge? I don't get how their scheme works. Or are they stam identity thieves?

I just want to understand the game they're playing.

Also, how the heck are they getting 100k MRs from any Amex bonus available today? I know of no such bonus. Not even close.

Please explain to me. This stuff is like my version of watching Law and Order.
I'm not familiar with this particular scenario, but having the word SHUL in the ad brings me to believe that they ask for a lot of names to apply for.

Regarding the 100K, I assume they take a commission.

Offline shmuelb

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 772
  • Total likes: 11
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Israel
  • Programs: Amex Plat, AAdvantage, Elal Matmid, Southwest, Delta Silver Medallion Skymiles, Hertz #1 Gold 5 Star, National Emerald Club Executive.
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #119 on: January 07, 2014, 08:01:06 AM »
I was once in Manhattan Friday afternoon many years ago doing my rounds and a guy came over to me with some story that his car is in a lot and he has no money to get in back and he needs to go somewhere for shabbos and much more.... I gave him some money then I found out he's doing this for a long time and preying on young unsuspecting bochrim he's still out there as far as last year.
I think it would be good if people write the nature of their story so people would realize how they are being fooled or manipulated

First time I was in Geula a kid came over to me with story, wallet stolen, needs money for bus... I asked him if he has change of a hundred, he started to pull it out. I grabbed his hsirt and said "if I ever see you do such a thing again...".

I had got the idea from a Country Yossi article I once read. The crook hears money coming and loses his cool. Works in many parts of dealing...

The lesson for US is that the Yetzer Hara entices us with exciting stuff and we lose our equilibrium and clear thinking. השוחד עיני חכמים יעור ויסלף דברים של צדיקים
siyag lachachma :-)