I need Electric Help... Any electricians out there?

[SHL]

Also, how do you know that A1 and A3 are in, and B1 and C1 are out? Is it possible that it is the reverse? (I assume because the boiler switch has the extra wires going out to the heater switch and not vice versa...?)

This is how it should be wired (and follows the normal pattern) I can't be 100 percent sure without being there and actually testing......

[skyguy918]

I have a very small bathroom with an all in one light/heater/fan. They're controlled by a two gang box, with a full size switch for the light on one side and a dual/double switch for the fan and heater functions separately on the other. The problem is that guests tend to accidentally hit the fan and/or heater switches on Shabbos when it can't just be turned off.

At first I thought about mechanical countdown timers, since they're less likely to be accidentally turned on, and even if they are, it's only for a short period. However, there don't appear to be any single gang, dual timer switches. So then I was thinking a single gang 3 switch on one side and a mechanical countdown timer on the other side, somehow wired so the light switch is controlled directly, but the fan switch and heater switch are tied into the timer (so that they only trigger when both the timer is active and their individual switch is on). Is that even possible? Or maybe there's a simpler solution to the underlying problem?

[shopcomputer]

I have a very small bathroom with an all in one light/heater/fan. They're controlled by a two gang box, with a full size switch for the light on one side and a dual/double switch for the fan and heater functions separately on the other. The problem is that guests tend to accidentally hit the fan and/or heater switches on Shabbos when it can't just be turned off.

At first I thought about mechanical countdown timers, since they're less likely to be accidentally turned on, and even if they are, it's only for a short period. However, there don't appear to be any single gang, dual timer switches. So then I was thinking a single gang 3 switch on one side and a mechanical countdown timer on the other side, somehow wired so the light switch is controlled directly, but the fan switch and heater switch are tied into the timer (so that they only trigger when both the timer is active and their individual switch is on). Is that even possible? Or maybe there's a simpler solution to the underlying problem?

Shabbos switch cover.

Smart switch, you can set a routine for it to go off after a certain period, etc.

[skyguy918]

Shabbos switch cover.

I have yet to see one designed for dual switches.

Smart switch, you can set a routine for it to go off after a certain period, etc.

It would need to be a double smart switch, since we're talking about replacing/controlling two separate functions. I know they make that as well, but I've only seen it from no-name brands, which makes me a bit wary. Also, it's definitely preferable to find a solution that avoids triggering the switches in the first place.

[CountValentine]

It would need to be a double smart switch, since we're talking about replacing/controlling two separate functions. I know they make that as well, but I've only seen it from no-name brands, which makes me a bit wary. Also, it's definitely preferable to find a solution that avoids triggering the switches in the first place.

Like this?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lutron-Maestro-Dual-Digital-Dimmer-Switch-For-Incandescent-Bulbs-Only-300-Watt-Single-Pole-White-MA-L3L3-WH-MA-L3L3-WH/100658806?mtc=SHOPPING-CM-CML-BNG-D27-027_002_WIRING_DEVIC-NA-NA-NA-PLALIA-4035595-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NA-2023&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-CM-CML-BNG-D27-027_002_WIRING_DEVIC-NA-NA-NA-PLALIA-4035595-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NA-2023-71700000108163779-58700008321068990-92700075652523495&gclid=ca836c09c35d178e4d8f09435db0d297&gclsrc=3p.ds&msclkid=ca836c09c35d178e4d8f09435db0d297&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=SHOPPING-CM-CML-BNG-D27-027_002_WIRING_DEVIC-NA-NA-NA-PLALIA-4035595-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NA-2023&utm_term=4577060754055675&utm_content=Wiring%20Devices%20-%20All%20Product%20Types

[skyguy918]

Like this?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lutron-Maestro-Dual-Digital-Dimmer-Switch-For-Incandescent-Bulbs-Only-300-Watt-Single-Pole-White-MA-L3L3-WH-MA-L3L3-WH/100658806?mtc=SHOPPING-CM-CML-BNG-D27-027_002_WIRING_DEVIC-NA-NA-NA-PLALIA-4035595-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NA-2023&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-CM-CML-BNG-D27-027_002_WIRING_DEVIC-NA-NA-NA-PLALIA-4035595-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NA-2023-71700000108163779-58700008321068990-92700075652523495&gclid=ca836c09c35d178e4d8f09435db0d297&gclsrc=3p.ds&msclkid=ca836c09c35d178e4d8f09435db0d297&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=SHOPPING-CM-CML-BNG-D27-027_002_WIRING_DEVIC-NA-NA-NA-PLALIA-4035595-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NA-2023&utm_term=4577060754055675&utm_content=Wiring%20Devices%20-%20All%20Product%20Types

This is just a dimmer as far as I can tell, how would that help?

[CountValentine]

This is just a dimmer as far as I can tell, how would that help?

Sorry, thought it was a smart switch.

[yungermanchik]

I have yet to see one designed for dual switches.

Amazon.com: Rocker Switch Plate Cover Guard, ILIVABLE Child Proof Light Switch Guard Protects Your Lights or Circuits from being Accidentally Turned On or Off by Children and Adults (2 Pack White): Home Improvement ($10.99)

just keep the top door open

[skyguy918]

just keep the top door open

Each switch operates side to side, and therefore they stick out more than a standard rocker switch. I guess with Amazon I can buy to check and return if it doesn't fit, but I'm not optimistic that it'll fit.

[Yo ssi]

I have a very small bathroom with an all in one light/heater/fan. They're controlled by a two gang box, with a full size switch for the light on one side and a dual/double switch for the fan and heater functions separately on the other. The problem is that guests tend to accidentally hit the fan and/or heater switches on Shabbos when it can't just be turned off.

Can you send a picture of your switch setup?

[shopcomputer]

I have yet to see one designed for dual switches.
It would need to be a double smart switch, since we're talking about replacing/controlling two separate functions. I know they make that as well, but I've only seen it from no-name brands, which makes me a bit wary. Also, it's definitely preferable to find a solution that avoids triggering the switches in the first place.

There are many double smart switches here is an example. https://www.amazon.com/MOES-Switches-Inteligente-Assistant-Controlgle/dp/B0C3HGGYHG
As far as shabbos covers there are many options just check a hardware or search online example https://www.amazon.com/Mitzvah-Family-Magnetic-Toggle-Switch/dp/B002X88GYY

[Shmueli]

This is how it should be wired (and follows the normal pattern) I can't be 100 percent sure without being there and actually testing......

Thanks
Can you also advise on how / where to put the timer on the wall?
I don't want to start cutting the tile to add the timer... Can I just surface mount it above the the switches? I'll have exposed wire coming out of the switch box to through the bottom of the timer box then.

Any better ideas?

See pic.
Thanks

[SHL]

Thanks
Can you also advise on how / where to put the timer on the wall?
I don't want to start cutting the tile to add the timer... Can I just surface mount it above the the switches? I'll have exposed wire coming out of the switch box to through the bottom of the timer box then.

Any better ideas?

See pic.
Thanks

If you look at the picture there is a U shaped depression on the right side
There should be one on the bottom too
This is the same size a electrical conduit ("pipe" you run wires in )
Would recommend you surface mount timer exactly as you show in the picture but run the wires in conduit instead of loose
There should even be a fitting (which Murphy's law says your local hardware store will not have) that sits in the place of the old switch with a conduit adapter opening facing upwards

[skyguy918]

Can you send a picture of your switch setup?

There are many double smart switches here is an example. https://www.amazon.com/MOES-Switches-Inteligente-Assistant-Controlgle/dp/B0C3HGGYHG

As far as shabbos covers there are many options just check a hardware or search online example https://www.amazon.com/Mitzvah-Family-Magnetic-Toggle-Switch/dp/B002X88GYY

If I can figure out how to wire up the idea I mentioned (mechanical countdown timer plus triple switch) that would be ideal, because it would solve the accidental switch-flipping and also add functionality. The smart switch idea - if I could even find a double switch from a brand name at a reasonable price - adds functionality, but doesn't really prevent accidental switch-flipping. The covers prevent accidental switch-flipping but don't add functionality. I'm still skeptical that any that I've seen will fit (the one in your link certainly won't) but with free returns I decided to just order some to try out - so thanks for the suggestion.

[Yo ssi]

If I can figure out how to wire up the idea I mentioned (mechanical countdown timer plus triple switch) that would be ideal, because it would solve the accidental switch-flipping and also add functionality. The smart switch idea - if I could even find a double switch from a brand name at a reasonable price - adds functionality, but doesn't really prevent accidental switch-flipping. The covers prevent accidental switch-flipping but don't add functionality. I'm still skeptical that any that I've seen will fit (the one in your link certainly won't) but with free returns I decided to just order some to try out - so thanks for the suggestion.

The only advantage to having a mechanic timer (which I'm not certain is even doable as you think it is), is to not be reliant on a cloud server for automations. There are some smart switches that will work locally but that's more advanced.

Simply buy something like this have an automaton that after 15 minutes of being on then turn off, or if it's shabbos turn off right away. And a cover should fit over it as well so you prevent people from touching.

[skyguy918]

The only advantage to having a mechanic timer (which I'm not certain is even doable as you think it is), is to not be reliant on a cloud server for automations. There are some smart switches that will work locally but that's more advanced.

Simply buy something like this have an automaton that after 15 minutes of being on then turn off, or if it's shabbos turn off right away. And a cover should fit over it as well so you prevent people from touching.

I appreciate all of the suggestions, but a smart switch plus a cover seems like a waste of money. The cover would be what takes care of shabbos, and an auto 15 minute shutoff for during the week is not something I care about. Countdown timers add functionality because anyone that walks in (ie guests sleeping over, the primary users) can elect how long to turn it on for and not have to come back to shut it off. A set 15 minutes shutoff doesn't help for the weekday. If I can't figure out how to wire what I described I'll probably just stick with a cover.

[Yo ssi]

I appreciate all of the suggestions, but a smart switch plus a cover seems like a waste of money. The cover would be what takes care of shabbos, and an auto 15 minute shutoff for during the week is not something I care about. Countdown timers add functionality because anyone that walks in (ie guests sleeping over, the primary users) can elect how long to turn it on for and not have to come back to shut it off. A set 15 minutes shutoff doesn't help for the weekday. If I can't figure out how to wire what I described I'll probably just stick with a cover.

Are you ok with the heat and fan being synced?

[skyguy918]

Are you ok with the heat and fan being synced?

Not really. I'm guessing the follow up to that is it can't be wired to do them separately?

[Yo ssi]

Not really. I'm guessing the follow up to that is it can't be wired to do them separately?

Highly doubt you'll find one that's lets you control two relays separately.
I think it's worth you're while to get a smart switch even if don't use the auto off for weekdays (you can set it to the max possible length just in case)

[skyguy918]

Highly doubt you'll find one that's lets you control two relays separately.
I think it's worth you're while to get a smart switch even if don't use the auto off for weekdays (you can set it to the max possible length just in case)

I don't understand the benefit of a smart switch in this situation. It doesn't properly replicate the function of a countdown timer - any guest walking into the bathroom can have the countdown timer go on for whatever however long they want to set it to for that visit to the bathroom, while only I would be able to control the timer of a smart switch. And it doesn't properly replicate the function of a switch cover because it doesn't actually prevent he switch from being triggered. The rest of a smart switch's multi-functionality hold no value to me in this bathroom (I do use them for lighting in most public areas of the house).

So it sounds like a timer plus 2 switches is just not doable, but let me just clarify the outcome I'm looking for, in case I didn't explain it correctly initially. If the timer is off, neither the fan nor the heater should turn on regardless of the position of each of their switches. If the timer is on, each appliance should only be on if its switch is also on. Is that doable?