Ask a Lubavitcher Anything

[ExGingi]

The shabbos status of Japan/NZ/Hawaii have absolutely nothing to do with crossing the dateline.

Who says so? (Hawaii is a separate issue altogether).

What is the din if you cross the international dateline and go to a place where there are no Yidden?

https://www.shut-halacha.co.il/q/%D7%A9%D7%91%D7%AA-%D7%A7%D7%95-%D7%94%D7%AA%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9A-5902

[Dan]

What is the din if you cross the international dateline and go to a place where there are no Yidden?

Exactly the same if you didn't cross the dateline to get there. I'm not aware of any psak that crossing the dateline changes a thing.
Any island in the Pacific is going to have that shailah.

[chbochur]

The shabbos status of Japan/NZ/Hawaii have absolutely nothing to do with crossing the dateline. They are tough questions, and Lubavitch is indeed unique to the approach about this.
Rabbi AD Gancz gives a phenomenal shiur on shitas Chabad about those issues. I wish someone would record it, as I only heard it on Shavuos.

@dirah Are you aware of any horaa to avoid ever crossing the dateline?

https://chabadlibrary.org/books/admur/ig/21/8066.htm
To the contrary. The rebbe seems to say they you can't asser crossing the dateline (speaking about shabbos)

[ExGingi]

https://chabadlibrary.org/books/admur/ig/21/8066.htm
To the contrary. The rebbe seems to say they you can't asser crossing the dateline (speaking about shabbos)

In this letter the Rebbe is referring specifically to crossing the dateline at the moment Shabbos would come in on one side (and ostensibly end on the other side) and not have Shabbos at all. It doesn't discuss crossing at other times. I don't think anyone considers it an issur to cross, but there are those who avoid(ed) it.

[ExGingi]

Exactly the same if you didn't cross the dateline to get there. I'm not aware of any psak that crossing the dateline changes a thing.
Any island in the Pacific is going to have that shailah.

What if to Yiddishe couples arrived at the same location with no Jewish community, one couple crossed the dateline (for argument sake, let's say they came from LAX) and the other didn't (let's say they came from TLV). They're together at the same location, do they keep Shabbos on different days? What if it's a larger group in each direction, 3, 5, 9, 10? Would it make any difference if one group arrived before the other? What if everyone stayed there for several weeks (assuming you rule that they keep Shabbos on different days), does the ruling change for subsequent Shabbosim?

[imayid2]

What if to Yiddishe couples arrived at the same location with no Jewish community, one couple crossed the dateline (for argument sake, let's say they came from LAX) and the other didn't (let's say they came from TLV). They're together at the same location, do they keep Shabbos on different days? What if it's a larger group in each direction, 3, 5, 9, 10? Would it make any difference if one group arrived before the other? What if everyone stayed there for several weeks (assuming you rule that they keep Shabbos on different days), does the ruling change for subsequent Shabbosim?

No because (as Dan said) the shabbos question is dependent on the geographic location, not whether or not the dateline was crossed traveling there.

[Dan]

What if to Yiddishe couples arrived at the same location with no Jewish community, one couple crossed the dateline (for argument sake, let's say they came from LAX) and the other didn't (let's say they came from TLV). They're together at the same location, do they keep Shabbos on different days? What if it's a larger group in each direction, 3, 5, 9, 10? Would it make any difference if one group arrived before the other? What if everyone stayed there for several weeks (assuming you rule that they keep Shabbos on different days), does the ruling change for subsequent Shabbosim?

I'm lost.

Please explain how crossing the dateline affects when Shabbos is?

Most Chabad poskim will say to keep 1 day of Shabbos in Guam on the day the locals observe as Saturday, while most other poskim will say to keep 2, though possibly with only d'oraisahs on 1 day.

How you got there is irrelevant.

[chbochur]

In this letter the Rebbe is referring specifically to crossing the dateline at the moment Shabbos would come in on one side (and ostensibly end on the other side) and not have Shabbos at all. It doesn't discuss crossing at other times. I don't think anyone considers it an issur to cross, but there are those who avoid(ed) it.

Tht rebbe says no issue right before shabbos, for sure the rest of the week we are not worried about crossing because of shabbos concerns.
Is that not what @Dan was asking for?

[ExGingi]

No because (as Dan said) the shabbos question is dependent on the geographic location, not whether or not the dateline was crossed traveling there.

And where do you draw the geographic line? @Dan mentions Guam, was it they who decided to redraw the line, or was it some other island?

IINM there are shittos that draw the line based on how the place was first inhabited (or how Yidden first arrived there).

[Dan]

And where do you draw the geographic line? @Dan mentions Guam, was it they who decided to redraw the line, or was it some other island?

IINM there are shittos that draw the line based on how the place was first inhabited (or how Yidden first arrived there).

Again, these are tough questions that have nothing to do with how you got there.

[ExGingi]

Again, these are tough questions that have nothing to do with how you got there.

What if it's an uninhabited island? Part of the avoidance of crossing the dateline is the uncertainty about how it should be drawn.

[dirah]

The bottom line is that there are a few Chassidim in Australia who avoided crossing the international dateline (IINM instructed to do so by the Rebbe).

I am unaware of any written הוראה, but you can definitely ask the Australian Groners (and IINM also the Serebrianskys, and possibly others).

@dirah Are you aware of any horaa to avoid ever crossing the dateline?

Yes, Reb Arel z”l has such a horaah that he kept meticulously. There may have been others, I don’t know. But was certainly not a הוראה לרבים.
I have also seen a Ksav Yad where the Rebbe advises the Dateline not to be crossed, not sefirah but some other part of the year, I don’t know the context.

Yeshiva shluchim to Australia also always flew with a stop in EY (and IINM also stops in the UK or Europe) on the way.

That began with the third Kvutzah who departed during Sefirah. So you could bring a proof to the contrary from the first two Kevutzos.

[gozalim]

@ExGingi the rebbe's letters might not be clear on which line we take, but one of the few things he does clearly refute is R' Kasher's suggestion that it's 'personal' depending on your own direction of arrival

[ExGingi]

But was certainly not a הוראה לרבים.

No disagreement here.

That began with the third Kvutzah who departed during Sefirah. So you could bring a proof to the contrary from the first two Kevutzos.

When was the Rebbe first מעורר about the שבועות issue?

When did the first kvutzos go?

Bottom line is that there's no disagreement that this wasn't a הוראה לרבים, but definitely a הוראה for certain individuals. As I said, the fact that there are Halachic rulings don't negate the fact that there's a שאלה.

[ExGingi]

@ExGingi the rebbe's letters might not be clear on which line we take, but one of the few things he does clearly refute is R' Kasher's suggestion that it's 'personal' depending on your own direction of arrival

TBH, I didn't read Kasher's writings on this, but based on a synopsis given to me by my son I understood it to be dependent on how a place became inhabited first (by yidden?), and NOT "personal".

[ExGingi]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-16351377.amp

What was a Yid to do if he was in Samoa when they shifted? What if 5 yidden arrived before the shift and 5 others after. Can they daven together on Shabbos (when is it)?

להבדיל others also have issues

https://atoday.org/samoa-the-international-dateline-shift-and-the-seventh-day-sabbath/

[Dan]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-16351377.amp

What was a Yid to do if he was in Samoa when they shifted? What if 5 yidden arrived before the shift and 5 others after. Can they daven together on Shabbos (when is it)?

להבדיל others also have issues

https://atoday.org/samoa-the-international-dateline-shift-and-the-seventh-day-sabbath/

I asked this shailah. The answer was not to go there for Shabbos.

[ExGingi]

Why get in shaalos about Shabbos?

Some people might be shocked to find out that there are Yidden out there, who feel more inconvenienced by putting themselves into halachic shaalos than having an ostensibly longer journey, or having to miss out on certain things.

Because there is none regarding crossing the dateline? Show me a horaah or letter advising this?

I asked this shailah. The answer was not to go there for Shabbos.

I understand that you feel this has nothing to do with the direction one is traveling, but in a hypothetical of landing on an uninhabited island (or being on a cruise in the vicinity), I would think it does matter (especially according to R' Kasher).

[ExGingi]

I asked this shailah. The answer was not to go there for Shabbos.

Ever?

Would it be somewhat of an accurate portrayal if we said that I say that not every question has an answer, while you say there is an answer (even if it doesn't answer everything)?

BTW, I think the מציאות of space travel is supportive of R' Kasher's shitta.

[dirah]

When was the Rebbe first מעורר about the שבועות issue?

When did the first kvutzos go?

Long before.

With regards to the Dateline in general, the Rebbe’s famous letter to Rabbi Wilshanski was 5709. I believe (but not certain) that the Horaah to Reb Arel was already in the Yuds.

Regarding Sefirah, the Rebbe discussed in a Sicha in 5717. The letter to Rabbi Abramson a”h about Sefirah was 5721, and in it the Rebbe writes that its already some time that he has expressed his view that people should not cross the deadline during Sefirah and cause Shavuos to be a different date. There was also the famous incident that year involving Reb Yoel Kahn.

The first Kevutzah of Shluchim was 5727.