Law School

[Ergel]

You have to say it like R' Avigdor Miller did - I don't shake hands with beautiful women other than my wife.



As an aside, is there a heter to offer your hand lechatchila? or just to return the handshake?

I think some poskim will tell you that shaking hands is not derech chiba and therefore mutar

[jj1000]

You have to say it like R' Avigdor Miller did - I don't shake hands with beautiful women other than my wife.

As if that works. I once heard someone say "I don't touch what I can't afford".......

[Aaaron]

As if that works. I once heard someone say "I don't touch what I can't afford".......

Wince. 

[henche]

You have to say it like R' Avigdor Miller did - I don't shake hands with beautiful women other than my wife.



As an aside, is there a heter to offer your hand lechatchila? or just to return the handshake?

As if that works. I once heard someone say "I don't touch what I can't afford".......

You folks better attend that sexual harassment training.

[shiframeir]

That is why the argument can never be "what will others say". It depends only on what Halachah says, and if Halachah says something is wrong ייקוב הדין את ההר.

There's a reason the FIRST Seif in Shulchan Aruch says "לא יתבייש מפני בני אדם המלעיגים עליו"

My point is i agree that of course what haters may say cannot overcome what the actual halacha in any specific instance is. But since what others think or say (on a broad scale) and the affects with respect thereto can and does affect the halachic imperative itself in many respects (darchei shalom etc.), the halacha to follow (i believe, after discussing with my LOR), incorporating all of the factors at hand including today's women and biases with respect thereto, the regularized handshake as a means of formality without any sexual or even familiar connotation, and the fact that me being so consicous of the specific act i am doing and the geder generally imposed (so that there is no way i will succumb to jumping on this woman in the conference room table), is that i should shake the hand (not just i can). 
And of course, i was joking about throwing my hand at any women i see. or maybe i'm this guy

(warning pg-13)

[skyguy918]

My point is i agree that of course what haters may say cannot overcome what the actual halacha in any specific instance is. But since what others think or say (on a broad scale) and the affects with respect thereto can and does affect the halachic imperative itself in many respects (darchei shalom etc.), the halacha to follow (i believe, after discussing with my LOR), incorporating all of the factors at hand including today's women and biases with respect thereto, the regularized handshake as a means of formality without any sexual or even familiar connotation, and the fact that me being so consicous of the specific act i am doing and the geder generally imposed (so that there is no way i will succumb to jumping on this woman in the conference room table), is that i should shake the hand (not just i can). 
And of course, i was joking about throwing my hand at any women i see. or maybe i'm this guy

(warning pg-13)

I don't think anyone was taking specific issue with your decision to shake hands. But you said:

...I know i made a pretty big chillul hashem ...
and with my head down i softly tried to explain that i'm sorry but per my religion i dont shake hands with any woman but my wife. they and the classmates around me gave the most awkward look for like 5 seconds, then said ok, they are sorry (these were recruiting people). my lunch was pretty downhill from there.

You've yet to explain how you made a chillul Hashem. The position of not shaking a women's hand in any circumstance certainly has strong basis in halacha, even though it's probably not the only valid halachic approach to the sugya. So how could it be a chillul Hashem?

[lunatic]

In regards to the issue of shaking hands with the opposite gender,  I  don't think anyone who does not work in the professional business world can understand...

[skyguy918]

In regards to the issue of shaking hands with the opposite gender,  I  don't think anyone who does not work in the professional business world can understand...

What's to understand? That's a very condescending attitude, especially since there are many in the 'professional business world' who don't shake.

Personally I shake, but mainly because I'm spineless and hate awkwardness, not because I believe it's the right thing to do. If it would be something that's straight out assur, I'm sure I'd figure out a way to not shake, but there's what to rely on, so I do it and feel bad about it each time.

[Ches]

The definition of Chilul Hashem is, when the world see that we are not following the Torah. If by following the Torah we do some awkward thing, then it's not called Chilul Hashem.

[thaber]

I think some poskim will tell you that shaking hands is not derech chiba and therefore mutar

and therefore not אביזרייהו דעריות, that doesn't make it muttar

[thaber]

You folks better attend that sexual harassment training.

I was kidding. so was JJ. Noone thinks you should say that. the only thing that probably works to some extent is what my brother does, which is to tell people pre meeting in an email or through his secretary. It takes away the awkwardness to a large degree.

[lunatic]

What's to understand? That's a very condescending attitude, especially since there are many in the 'professional business world' who don't shake.

Personally I shake, but mainly because I'm spineless and hate awkwardness, not because I believe it's the right thing to do. If it would be something that's straight out assur, I'm sure I'd figure out a way to not shake, but there's what to rely on, so I do it and feel bad about it each time.

I think you misunderstood. Not saying that it is or is not correct (through I personally do),  just saying that to understand the issue and the awkward situations,  you need to be part of the professional business world

[thaber]

In regards to the issue of shaking hands with the opposite gender,  I  don't think anyone who does not work in the professional business world can understand...

I don't think anyone taking part in this conversation is NOT in the professional business world, or in law school. We all get it. (In fact most Rabbi's who are out and about do as well, but they can blame it on being Rabbi's)And I'd imagine most of us are meikel and are spineless, like skyguy said. But at least it's with the perspective of this isn't ideal. And ditto for the yarmulka, shaving, shoes on 9 Av questions. (Sleeping with the recruiters is a whole different story though.)

[Yehuda25]

The definition of Chilul Hashem is, when the world see that we are not following the Torah. If by following the Torah we do some awkward thing, then it's not called Chilul Hashem.

Correct thats what my LOR told me

[blerbz]

B'h I no longer have the issue but there was a time I was having trouble finding a job. I was speaking to a (very chareidi) rebbe of mine in E'Y and he asked if I wear a yarmulka. Of course i did. He told me I'd better ask a posek before making such assumptions that I was doing what's right I was surprised but I asked a well known posek and was told that I was not allowed to wear it. Not a heter - actually forbidden to wear it (I told him I wanted to). Was also told to never let my kids know because for a kid it's shmad. In one if the backward things in life essentially a rov made me stop wearing a yarmulka.
It's no longer nogeia for me, but was an eye opener

[Yordai Dooma]

In regards to the issue of shaking hands with the opposite gender,  I  don't think anyone who does not work in the professional business world can understand...

+1000

That's ridiculous. Take off your yarmulka to succeed in the workplace? I must vociferously object lest some innocent person be discouraged by your post. If you are talented and motivated, you will succeed. Your Yiddishkeit is not an obstacle; it's an asset.

B'h I no longer have the issue but there was a time I was having trouble finding a job. I was speaking to a (very chareidi) rebbe of mine in E'Y and he asked if I wear a yarmulka. Of course i did. He told me I'd better ask a posek before making such assumptions that I was doing what's right I was surprised but I asked a well known posek and was told that I was not allowed to wear it. Not a heter - actually forbidden to wear it (I told him I wanted to). Was also told to never let my kids know because for a kid it's shmad. In one if the backward things in life essentially a rov made me stop wearing a yarmulka.
It's no longer nogeia for me, but was an eye opener

I actually heard the following from a friend of mine (he heard it from his friend who asked R' Elyashiv):
He posed the question like this- Every year on R'H its determined how much money a person will make in the upcoming year. If i wear my yarmulka to a business meeting and i lose the deal (solely because i was wearing my yarmulka), did i just lose money that i was supposed to make? The answer was yes! 
In other words, had i not worn my yarmulka, i would have gotten the deal and earned the money i was destined to earn. The money i lost may was destined for me on R'H, but i lost it by wearing my yarmulka and therefore will not make as much as hashem planned for me for the year.

[Dan]

So a Yarmulka is an anti-keli. Cool.
I wonder what peyos or a beard must be?

[lunatic]

So a Yarmulka is an anti-keli. Cool.
I wonder what peyos or a beard must be?

Maybe you should shave your beard

[Dan]

Can we get a full list of halachos in shulchan aruch that are anti-kelis?

Shaking hands.
Yarmulkas.
Not shaving.

Keeping kosher?

[Achas Veachas]

Can we get a full list of halachos in shulchan aruch that are anti-kelis?

Shaking hands.
Yarmulkas.
Not shaving.

Keeping kosher?

Don't forget Shabbos.