Author Topic: The Future of Lakewood  (Read 534501 times)

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4420 on: March 07, 2024, 02:13:35 PM »
Maybe square rooms.
Add in diagonals, convex and concave curves... No chance.
It takes me time to remember the formulas each time I need to do it (bec i dont use the skills often)
How useful is that in most peoples daily lives?

Offline Euclid

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4421 on: March 07, 2024, 02:16:26 PM »
Geometry is a no brainer that it's important. Anytime you want to measure something to build anything or figure things out if it'll fit. Which will happen a decent amount of times in a regular person's life.

Calculus I can agree it's only important if you're planning on pursuing something that needs it.
Of course there are specific things which specific areas entail. For most of the population calculus is utterly useless.
How would a high school kid know what they want to do for parnassa? There are some studies which are pointless outside of academia, but there are plenty of studies that allow for a profession that make good money.

Offline Euclid

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4422 on: March 07, 2024, 02:18:49 PM »
Off the top of my head I know 3 of my friends from yeshiva who are currently unemployed because they're not cut out for entrepreneurship and they don't have the basic requisite skills to get a degree. And it's more worth it for them to stay in kollel or fatz around on govt programs than take a mediocre office job.

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4423 on: March 07, 2024, 02:19:15 PM »
How would a high school kid know what they want to do for parnassa? There are some studies which are pointless outside of academia, but there are plenty of studies that allow for a profession that make good money.
Is the point of English studies for parnassa purposes? Then there are so many other things they should be teaching.

Offline UKinNYS

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4424 on: March 07, 2024, 02:22:16 PM »
unless you go into blue collar or sales most professions use college as a qualifier and its tough to play catch up.
Is the point of English studies for parnassa purposes? Then there are so many other things they should be teaching.

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4425 on: March 07, 2024, 02:24:19 PM »
World history is essential for understanding Jewish history.
much of natural sciences (bio, earth sci, maybe less chem and physics, but i wouldn't know bec I never learned them) will be useful at some point in many peoples lives
math in general is important for everyone.
For the regular Yankel in Lakewood, can you elaborate why heís find it necessary to study natural sciences?
And math (beyond simple math).

Offline Kmusic22

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4426 on: March 07, 2024, 02:25:26 PM »
I moved and never updated. It's not a great conspiracy.

The bafflement suggests you learnt critical thinking in Lakewood schools...

Which schools have a strong department? That the Hanhala and the rebbeim and thenstudent body are machshav English and it's not viewed as some big game?
You can find them if you look hard enough.
(I know that would mean that theyíre not easy to find, but thatís life. Have to work hard to get the gold!)
I heard that Orchos Chaim has a decent English department, or at least had in the past.
I also heard recently that תלמוד תורה דלייקווד (kalmanowitz) has a serious English.
My boys elementary school has a very decent general studies department. I don't think they graduate at a lower level than the typical Brooklyn yeshivos. 
Boys mesivtos are a different story. My experience is limited to one mesivta which is high level in limudei kodesh and has a sort of outsourced general studies dept. It is totally up to the kid and his parents to opt in or out. The benefit is that for the most part, kids who opt in are interested in gaining the knowledge and take it (semi) seriously.
Even though they might graduate on a similar level as Brooklyn boys elementary schools, boys high school English on the other hand (for those schools in Brooklyn that actually have English, the Brooklyn Cheder for example) will be a lot higher than almost all high school English in Lakewood. Since they have to take the regents. (Thatís what I see from friends and family)

I personally had barely any English in elementary, and zero in high school, but have better overall knowledge than guys I know from oot, who did have a solid English. While I may not be able to quote Shakespeare verbatim, or rattle off the table of elements, I for example have a higher English language comprehension & a better understanding of mathematics than guys from oot that I know (queens, Baltimore, Brooklyn, ChicagoÖ).
This may simply be because I enjoy gaining knowledge, have read a lot, and the way my brain is wired, but if thatís the case, why is it that important for the high school to have English as a major focus?
Iím not saying it isnít necessary in life to have a basic education thatís only taught in the English department, as I would have wanted more English in elementary, and at least a solid optional English track in high school, but in the end of the day, it boils down to each person individually.
Some kids wouldnít apply themselves more than the bare minimum, while others would throw themselves in all the way.
While I would take additional courses/study for the sake of gaining more knowledge, my brothers would not.
And as an aside, the boys in my family have much higher math skills, English etc. than the girls, and from what I hear, the girl donít walk out after graduation with any more skills than the boys.

Offline Euclid

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4427 on: March 07, 2024, 02:25:55 PM »
Is the point of English studies for parnassa purposes? Then there are so many other things they should be teaching.
I was responding to the specific examples you mentioned. Why calculus and geometry aren't useless since they are used in multiple professions.

There are a few reasons why I think general studies are good to have. Parnassa is one of them. Outlet (intellectually) is another.

Offline Kmusic22

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4428 on: March 07, 2024, 02:26:56 PM »

People who didnít study geometry in HS canít figure that out? I donít care if itís called geometry, you donít need to spend a year studying it for that type of basic stuff.
Maybe square rooms.
Add in diagonals, convex and concave curves... No chance.
It takes me time to remember the formulas each time I need to do it (bec i dont use the skills often)
When building, one needs to know angles, which I learnt in about 1 hour in 8th grade when the teacher decided to teach basic geometry/trigonometry.
Geography is important, which my father taught me on the paper maps while he was driving back in the day!

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4429 on: March 07, 2024, 02:27:56 PM »
There are a few reasons why I think general studies are good to have. Parnassa is one of them. Outlet (intellectually) is another.
I agree that outlets are important, but Iím not sure about intellectual outlets. Maybe for a certain type.

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4430 on: March 07, 2024, 02:28:45 PM »
How useful is that in most peoples daily lives?

Each individual bit of knowledge? Depends.
Basic and intermediate math - very
High School level English - in the working world probably essential in the majority of well paying jobs

other subjects, maybe not day to day but over a lifetime? Many things are useful.

For all the "how useful is x secular concept in daily life" -
(Not to be a Kofer but) How "useful" is the 12 blatt bekius they learn in that time at a high school level (over the entire year!) for the average Mesivta graduate in his "daily life"? Maybe the next time he learns that masechta? of if he learns a sugya that quotes those exact daf, he'll be a little familiar?


Online Sammy82

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4431 on: March 07, 2024, 02:30:15 PM »
Is the point of English studies for parnassa purposes? Then there are so many other things they should be teaching.
Many yeshivos do teach other things. Plumbing, electrical stuff, construction, etc. Look at Shaarai Arazim in Monsey or Darchei in FR. I'm sure there are many others. Not everybody is cut out to learn all day, especially at that age.

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4432 on: March 07, 2024, 02:30:59 PM »
Many yeshivos do teach other things. Plumbing, electrical stuff, construction, etc. Look at Shaarai Arazim in Monsey or Darchei in FR. I'm sure there are many others. Not everybody is cut out to learn all day, especially at that age.
I wholeheartedly endorse such a program at every Yeshiva

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4433 on: March 07, 2024, 02:34:34 PM »
I wholeheartedly endorse such a program at every Yeshiva

Why? plumbing, electrical, construction... are not useful to the average person in his daily life.
Anyway, I never learned any of that, and can change the cartridge in the faucets, clean the traps regularly, replaced the electric coils in my oven, build all kinds of stuff in my house... Just takes an hour or so to learn, and my friend showed me how to change a tire when we went n a road trip.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2024, 02:50:21 PM by yfr bachur »

Offline yitzgar

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4434 on: March 07, 2024, 02:38:25 PM »
Why? plumbing, electrical, construction... are not useful to the average person in his daily life
Um...if you own a house things like this come up probably once a week

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4435 on: March 07, 2024, 02:38:40 PM »
Why? plumbing, electrical, construction... is not useful to the average person in his daily life
Iím talking about DIY stuff which is immensely useful.
Otherwise specific career training is also something that makes a lot of sense to me.

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4436 on: March 07, 2024, 02:41:31 PM »
Each individual bit of knowledge? Depends.
Basic and intermediate math - very
High School level English - in the working world probably essential in the majority of well paying jobs

other subjects, maybe not day to day but over a lifetime? Many things are useful.

For all the "how useful is x secular concept in daily life" -
(Not to be a Kofer but) How "useful" is the 12 blatt bekius they learn in that time at a high school level (over the entire year!) for the average Mesivta graduate in his "daily life"? Maybe the next time he learns that masechta? of if he learns a sugya that quotes those exact daf, he'll be a little familiar?
Doesnít learning Torah have intrinsic value?

Online aygart

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4437 on: March 07, 2024, 02:43:50 PM »


If you learn some math and science, its much harder to be fooled by the vast amount of garbage science and statistics in the anti vax movement.
And also using garbage science for halacha discussions.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4438 on: March 07, 2024, 02:44:29 PM »
Um...if you own a house things like this come up probably once a week
And you can learn them in an hour from a book or youtube video!

And if you believe what is written on these forums, so too knowing math skill to keep yourself out of risky investments, and critical reading skills, and some science like why is the leaky water going upwards (capillary action) and why dont I have any water preasure on the upper floors of a building...

Offline dealfinder11

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #4439 on: March 07, 2024, 02:45:47 PM »
Do you think there's an audience in Lakewood for an Element ary school or mesivta that takes General Studies seriously?

On the par of a Chofetz Chaim or Torah Vedaas or YBH?

Attention Mods: Please consider spinning off the thread from here. Perhaps call it "General studies in yeshivas" or something of that nature.