Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....

[LongTimeLurker]

I dont think that the vast majority if any "chareidim" agree with this. There are countless anecdotes that show otherwise. If you don't understand the lifestyle then how can you be the arbiter of whether or not it conforms?

The problem is this discussion assumes there is a generic haredim. I think the majority of haredim are not aware of the options and the anecdotes are cherry picked.

Shachar has received a lot of praise across the board.
https://recruits.iaf.co.il/2719-he/IAF.aspx

[aygart]

The problem is this discussion assumes there is a generic haredim. I think the majority of haredim are not aware of the options and the anecdotes are cherry picked.

Shachar has received a lot of praise across the board.
https://recruits.iaf.co.il/2719-he/IAF.aspx

As told by whom?
Sounds like they are not doing a great job of PR. Don't expect people to change things based on options they are not aware of.

[EliJelly]

First of all, it makes me sad that the army that literally protects them is called shmad.

The term "Melting Pot" isn't something the chareidim came up with, Ben Gurion said that in describing the role of the IDF.

[bochur22]

The belief system that I put my life on the line and someone learns in kollel doesn't work if I don't believe what he believes or I don't think it's fair.

If you don't think it's fair his belief system doesn't work? Sounds like imposition of values again

[bochur22]

There's not an actual value system here, which is I think what Israeli Haredim (and it's not really fair to include all Haredim as the same but I digress) kind of misunderstand; An agreement was made between the Hazon Ish and DBG, no one thought it would keep going, and it create a system that doesn't actually make sense but because of political expediency has been allowed to last. That political expediency has been grafted on to a belief system, which makes it almost impossible to change anyone's mind.

There's an actual value system here underlying the lack of willingness to serve. The political agreement was made in order to solve a problem coming from the conflict of value systems. That doesn't turn the entire issue into a political expediency, rather it says that what the secular public, with their values saw as an expediency, was seen by the Chareidi public as a solution to allow them to retain their values. This was not grafted on to a belief system later. This was the Chareidi belief from the beginning.

[yfr bachur]

There's not an actual value system here, which is I think what Israeli Haredim (and it's not really fair to include all Haredim as the same but I digress) kind of misunderstand; An agreement was made between the Hazon Ish and DBG...

In your opinion and understanding.
I know many chareidim of many streams, and there's no way in the world I could make that statement.
This is exactly the wider israeli societies misconception.

Anyway, I should be getting back to my magnum opus...

(I see that @bochur22 explained this eloquently while I was typing)

[bochur22]

The belief system that I put my life on the line and someone learns in kollel doesn't work if I don't believe what he believes or I don't think it's fair. It's great that he believes that; but if I tell the army I worship Poseidon the sea God and he says I can't enlist because we desalinate water, I'll get laughed at and off to the Bakum I go.
So itt's my actual life on the line, my kids lives, and that as a rule I don't have a choice not to enlist.

The other thing to remember is that the Chareidi values say that their learning in Kollel helps the guy on the front lines at least a thousand times more than sending an emaciated 130 pound Meah Shearimnik who never lifted a weight into Gaza with a bunch of men whos values he doesn't share. Just because you don't share those values doesn't mean we don't have them. If you'd like to force your values onto us than come right out and say it. But remember that a large complaint of the Chiloni public is about Chareidim doing the same (Shabbat, Kashrut, Giyur, and Chometz in hospitals etc.)

[yfr bachur]

The other thing to remember is that the Chareidi values say that their learning in Kollel helps the guy on the front lines at least a thousand times more than sending an emaciated 130 pound Meah Shearimnik who never lifted a weight into Gaza with a bunch of men whos values he doesn't share. Just because you don't share those values doesn't mean we don't have them.

Debatewise, I do not happen to think that this a persuasive argument. It doesn't really matter what the chareidi values are. What matters is that they don't have the pro army service values, and a different sector wishes to force its values upon it.

If you'd like to force your values onto us than come right out and say it. But remember that a large complaint of the Chiloni public is about Chareidim doing the same (Shabbat, Kashrut, Giyur, and Chometz in hospitals etc.)

This argument opens a pandoras box....

[imayid2]

https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-real-problem-with-drafting-chareidim

[bochur22]

This argument opens a pandoras box....

We can, (and as is our Minhag here probably will) go through that whole convo afterwards. Just pointing out the equivalence here

[EliJelly]

https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/the-real-problem-with-drafting-chareidim

Gevaldig

[bochur22]

But fine, they don't want to serve. I get it. With a carrot is a stick.
Goodbye to all of the ridiculous child payments and all of the subsidizing. Israel needs to adopt the workfare welfare system that Clinton signed in the 90s.

In every country, there are many things funded by your tax dollars that make no difference to the average person. This government as well funds research, intellectual, and cultural activities that will never cure cancer (i.e. grants to study prehistoric bird life, Ancient Persian polytheistic philosophy, or sponsoring the concert at the end of the Tel Aviv pride parade)
The question is what your society places value upon.
Chareidi society places value upon the study of Torah, and we view it as a net benefit for society, much more than other intellectual pursuits which are also subsidized by the government.
As a percentage of the population, according to modern muliculturalistic values, our views and values, which matter to us, should be accomodated. In the same vein thatevolutionary shellfish studies are valuable enough to warrant grants in the eyes of secular society, torah study is much more valued for its positive effect on society in our view.
Additional point: If you view the rate of replacement of Arabs vs. Israelis as an existential crisis, since secular birth rates are declining, then it should be in your intrests to fund more Jewish birth, which is coming in large part from the Chareidi sector.
By the way, if the Knesset were to adopt the Clinton Welfare bill exactly as written in the US, Torah study would be considered fulfilling the work requirments.

[bochur22]

 

It doesn't really matter what you think or what offends your religious sensibilities. Either all the jews serve or none of the jews serve. That's the hard truth.

If you follow this line of logic then you'd be talking about drafting women too. That should tell you that this

The agreement made between Ben Gurion and the Hazon Ish was for a much smaller group of people and was never meant to reach the situation it's at now.

isn't an accurate representation of the background. As mentioned upthread, the Chazon Ish ruled that girls should rather be killed than do sherut leumi. And it wasn't rhetorical. The Brisker Rav taught his daughters the Bracha for dying Al Kiddush Hashem and instructed them to committ suicide if there was no other option. This issue isn't about political expediancy or laziness, and doesn't seem like a temporary stance for their time if one looks into the reasons behind it. There are values behind this, and without understanding that there can be no real discussion.

[JMHO]

It doesn't really matter what you think or what offends your religious sensibilities. Either all the jews serve or none of the jews serve. That's the hard truth.

Why?

[yfr bachur]

@LongTimeLurker @moe8555 I really hope that you stay around and participate in the disscussion. It is of all of our benifit for all diferent viewpoints to be heard, and to hear each others reactions to our viewpoints. I am eager to hear your furthur thoughts and reactions.
 I hope that you do not take any of our criticisms/comments as personal attacks, but rather in the spirit of brotherly debate and clarification, and we will all end up learning and with more respect for each other.

First of all, it makes me sad that the army that literally protects them is called shmad.

If this is a shock to you, (as it may be to many others), I would suggest that you inquire WHY this is so. The answer may help you better understand many other things too.

But fine, they don't want to serve. I get it. With a carrot is a stick.
Goodbye to all of the ridiculous child payments and all of the subsidizing.

I'm not sure why percieved unfairness in national service leads many to demand economic sanctions.
Most chareidim fulfill EVERY other civic duty a western democracy places on its population.
Anyway, what are these great subsidies that chareidim get? Please, tell me, I'd love to get them! 
If what your refering to is the stipends that avreichim get each month from Misrad Hadaatot... they're not that big anyway, and  while canceling them will cause hardship, it won't change minds.
Child payments were reformed already, and are not "lucrative" anymore either.
Oh, cut the subsidized childcare so the mothers can go work! Great idea, discourage those who are working, to stop, Brilliant!

As a side point, I think it would be economic stupidity to attack the economic stability of a large segment of the population who hold a huge amount of highly leveraged mortgages. A vast majority of chareidi couples buy apartments (to live or invest in) taking the full 70% mortgage allowed by law, and additional loans from friends and family. If you want to blow up your banking system... go ahead

Additional point: If you view the rate of replacement of Arabs vs. Israelis as an existential crisis, since secular birth rates are declining, then it should be in your intrests to fund more Jewish birth, which is coming in large part from the Chareidi sector.

This is why the govt should specificaly support avreichims stipends, rather than a general child allowance, as that encourages all sectors to procreate, but thats another point. As far as I'm concerned, the point that must be hammered home, time and time again is:

As a percentage of the population, according to modern muliculturalistic values, our views and values, which matter to us, should be accomodated.

This applies economicaly, socially and culturaly. Which returns us to the point that started it all: Chareidi and Dati values must be respected by the high court. If the high court is just a tool of the left to force the rest of society to accept the values of the left, than it has lost its democratic legitimacy, and MUST be reformed.

[LongTimeLurker]

In every country, there are many things funded by your tax dollars that make no difference to the average person. This government as well funds research, intellectual, and cultural activities that will never cure cancer (i.e. grants to study prehistoric bird life, Ancient Persian polytheistic philosophy, or sponsoring the concert at the end of the Tel Aviv pride parade)
The question is what your society places value upon.
Chareidi society places value upon the study of Torah, and we view it as a net benefit for society, much more than other intellectual pursuits which are also subsidized by the government.
As a percentage of the population, according to modern muliculturalistic values, our views and values, which matter to us, should be accomodated. In the same vein thatevolutionary shellfish studies are valuable enough to warrant grants in the eyes of secular society, torah study is much more valued for its positive effect on society in our view.
Additional point: If you view the rate of replacement of Arabs vs. Israelis as an existential crisis, since secular birth rates are declining, then it should be in your intrests to fund more Jewish birth, which is coming in large part from the Chareidi sector.

A lot to answer here but.. the government  funds most academia on the idea that it will get most of it back as taxes down the road, and that it will overall increase the GDP. The issue here is more about funding entrenched poverty but we've gone off thread.

By the way, if the Knesset were to adopt the Clinton Welfare bill exactly as written in the US, Torah study would be considered fulfilling the work requirments.

I had to give it's own quotation, explain.

Why?

This quote was a riff from the Bosch series of books/tv show, where the title character Detective Harry Bosch says about his murder victims, "Either everybody counts or nobody counts".

You can't ask only some of the people to go to war and not the others.

[yfr bachur]

...the government  funds most academia on the idea that it will get most of it back as taxes down the road, and that it will overall increase the GDP...

Science research, Medical, Bussiness... maybe you're right.
Anything in the liberal arts, therter, dance, even much of archeology and cosmic space science... Baloney. It's liberal values being subsidized.

You can't ask only some of the people to go to war and not the others.

But you do! Within today's drafted army!
This "Shivyaon Banetel" is a bunch of garbage.
 Yes, if you come from the right families, with the right connections you'll go to flight school, or join the navy, or get a cushy desk job working for the army radio station... While others (from lesser socio-economic backgrounds) are peeling potates... or lugging frieght).
Explain why the upper officer core is overwhelmingly white non religious askenazi men, from particular yishuvim,  While the Data"l serve in numbers well abouve their percentage of the population...
Why are there cushy non essential jobs at all in the mandatory service?

Oh, and if you're some sort of sports prodigy, or supermodel, or musician or the like, we'll exempt you from regular service...
Values system? I thought all have to serve.

[LongTimeLurker]

@LongTimeLurker @moe8555 I really hope that you stay around and participate in the disscussion. It is of all of our benifit for all diferent viewpoints to be heard, and to hear each others reactions to our viewpoints. I am eager to hear your furthur thoughts and reactions.
 I hope that you do not take any of our criticisms/comments as personal attacks, but rather in the spirit of brotherly debate and clarification, and we will all end up learning and with more respect for each other.

As long as we're respectful to each other, sure. It's a difficult topic but I am happy to discuss. At the end of the day we're all Jews here kol yisrael areivim ze la ze. Also, it's kind of hard to say all the Haredim, because I don't think my haredi friends, who won't send their kids to the army, would call it Shmad or go around with a truck. There's a huge range of what to call so we have to figure out who we're referring to.

(Discussing shmad)
If this is a shock to you, (as it may be to many others), I would suggest that you inquire WHY this is so. The answer may help you better understand many other things too.

Not a shock; just saddening. I understand it, I just don't agree with it.

Anyway, what are these great subsidies that chareidim get? Please, tell me, I'd love to get them! 
If what your refering to is the stipends that avreichim get each month from Misrad Hadaatot... they're not that big anyway, and  while canceling them will cause hardship, it won't change minds.

The way most stuff is set up here, the Haredi lifestyle is directly and indirectly subsidized. So while they chose to live in tzimzum, it's only because it's indirectly funded by everyone else. The stipends themselves are only a small part. Most discounts and social service availability is not tied to any means and is solely based on if you're making enough money as a result. If you look at the Jerusalem Arnona for example, the city basically is short 40% a year.

A non working married man will pay around 150 nis a month to bituach leumi for healthcare, while receiving the full Sal. (BTW as an aside, non working married women don't pay anything, which is a vestige of socialism here and ridiculous).

And then on top of that, their schooling is (mostly, this depends on the town and there is a law about this) mostly paid from public taxes but then there's nothing learnt to prepare them for possible entry into the workforce so the cycle continues. For the men, anyway.

Oh, cut the subsidized childcare so the mothers can go work! Great idea, discourage those who are working, to stop, Brilliant!

This is kind of the whole point, both parents need to work.

As a side point, I think it would be economic stupidity to attack the economic stability of a large segment of the population who hold a huge amount of highly leveraged mortgages. A vast majority of chareidi couples buy apartments (to live or invest in) taking the full 70% mortgage allowed by law, and additional loans from friends and family. If you want to blow up your banking system... go ahead

I don't really get this argument and I don't think it would have a big impact as you think. The couples would go bankrupt, the houses would be sold, the banks would get most of their money back because they only loaned 70% LTV and the non secured lenders would eat it. Israel as a rule has very conservative underwriting even when there were insanely low interest rates.

This applies economicaly, socially and culturaly. Which returns us to the point that started it all: Chareidi and Dati values must be respected by the high court. If the high court is just a tool of the left to force the rest of society to accept the values of the left, than it has lost its democratic legitimacy, and MUST be reformed.

The whole system of government needs a reform; you have an executive branch that is not really held in check by the legislature because it controls the legislature. You have a series of laws that have no meaning etc.. I could go on, I think the court is Leftist but not as left as people make it out to be, and because the other branches of government tend to overreach they're left in this weird unenviable position of having to rule on things that should rightly just be the purview of the knesset

[LongTimeLurker]

 

But you do! Within today's drafted army!
This "Shivyaon Banetel" is a bunch of garbage.
 Yes, if you come from the right families, with the right connections you'll go to flight school, or join the navy, or get a cushy desk job working for the army radio station... While others (from lesser socio-economic backgrounds) are peeling potates... or lugging frieght).
Explain why the upper officer core is overwhelmingly white non religious askenazi men, from particular yishuvim,  While the Data"l serve in numbers well abouve their percentage of the population...
Why are there cushy non essential jobs at all in the mandatory service?

Ok, need to dissect a few things here.
Flight school or navy are considered combat positions, albeit more "sexy" for lack of a better word.
But yes, like brings like and that's a problem.
Non essential in a military is hard to explain, because the vast majority of people are not warriors/combat but are still needed by the combat people:
cooks, mechanics, doctors, military police, people to build bases, people to fix the plumbing of the base, people to make sure the guns work, people to talk to other armies etc.

I think Army radio is a joke. 100% there are needless positions in the army; years ago the department I was in for a while as a young officer had a secretary, and I always felt it was such a waste to have this girl around for 2 years when she could  be out working. But you can't take every bad job in an army and point to it as reason not to serve; and as I keep saying there are plenty of other things that need staffing. No reason not to have haredi fire fighters (full time, not volunteers) - btw that's a great job for those who can pass the tests - 1 day on 2 days off, plenty of time to learn.

[bochur22]

A lot to answer here but.. the government  funds most academia on the idea that it will get most of it back as taxes down the road, and that it will overall increase the GDP. The issue here is more about funding entrenched poverty but we've gone off thread.

The examples I gave are the types of things lots of money is spent on without any hope of tax returns. Additionally, childcare funding also accomplishes the goal of taxes and increased GDP.