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The Supreme Court is not elected by representatives of the people. They are elected by other Supreme Court justices as well as from the Israel Bar Association.

The Supreme Court has the ultimate say on any law passed in Israel. They govern purely on "feelings", there is no constitution they base rulings on. This means that if the Knesset passes a bill regardless by what % of MK's voting for the bill. The SC can cancel that law/bill by a simple majority and the knesset cannot do anything about it.

The reform bill basically wants to give the elected officials of the Knesset the ability to choose who should be on the SC just like in the USA. They also want to take away the ability of the SC to cancel basic laws. They want to put the power back in the hands of the knesset who are democratically elected by the people.

This terrifies the left in Israel since they know they will never have a majority again in the Knesset. They will always need to rely on people like Lieberman, who although sat with Lapid is generally Right Wing, Gantz as well is Center Right and will also want more right wing judges if it was up to the Knesset. The left in Israel has only one thing preventing a true right wing country. That is the SC and that is why they are fighting until the bitter end.



« Last edited by username on March 27, 2023, 12:28:23 PM »

Author Topic: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....  (Read 42543 times)

Offline EliJelly

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #80 on: March 27, 2023, 03:14:49 PM »
:)

Correct, though they can always decide to go by the more logical and optimal excuse. We don't recognize and we're against the state of Israel, you don't draft the Palestinians, don't draft me either.
( :P :P)

Offline CountValentine

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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #82 on: March 27, 2023, 04:02:16 PM »
My question was addressing the point being made that getting rid of the mandatory service will unite the country. IMHO when you have any large group not willing to serve will tear the country apart.

I did not claim that it will create unity. I do claim that it is an issue that is brought up in order to obfuscate the true agendas.

Over 50% of Tel-Aviv (the bastion of progressive liberalism in Israel) draftable 18-year-olds avoid the draft. The military doesn't want or need so many people drafted.

BTW, Arab citizens are exempt from the draft, but that seems to bother no one. (Yeshiva students only get a deferral as long as they're studying, and once they stop being full-time Yeshiva students, their draft is usually waived due to being married with kids).

Furthermore, not everyone is built for full-time Yeshiva study, but the environment in the military might present a huge problem for people with an Orthodox value system. There are brigades specifically made for Orthodox youngsters, and every year there are more and more that actually join the military. However this cannot be endorsed in a widespread manner, exactly because of the overreach of the Supreme Court and its allies in the Justice Department, who try to force their values on people. Case in point - mixed gender units. At any given point the progressives might try to force mixed-gender units. Once a person is already in the military, it presents a huge problem, as refusing to serve in such a unit, or insisting on certain values have very different consequences once one is part of the military.
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #83 on: March 27, 2023, 04:20:51 PM »
I guess we are in agreement?  :)

Isn't that the case at least 90% of the time?
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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #84 on: March 27, 2023, 04:37:36 PM »
Reports are that Gantz appointed (amongst others) Gideo Sa'ar to be part of his negotiating team.

Having Sa'ar there can't result in any good-faith negotiations. Sa'ar is held by the b.... to protect the current elite.

He has serious allegations of sexual misconduct (that would make Bill Clinton look innocent). He previously advocated for judicial reforms (possibly more extreme than the current proposals) but changed his tune at a certain point, and is a fierce opponent of Netanyahu. If he bows to any compromise that takes away power from the elites, he will likely be repaid by getting into his own legal issues.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #85 on: March 27, 2023, 05:23:37 PM »
I did not claim that it will create unity.
I know and was referring to this:
An idea that could unite the country.
Make army service optional for all.
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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #86 on: March 27, 2023, 05:44:36 PM »
Reports are that Gantz appointed (amongst others) Gideo Sa'ar to be part of his negotiating team.

Having Sa'ar there can't result in any good-faith negotiations. Sa'ar is held by the b.... to protect the current elite.

He has serious allegations of sexual misconduct (that would make Bill Clinton look innocent). He previously advocated for judicial reforms (possibly more extreme than the current proposals) but changed his tune at a certain point, and is a fierce opponent of Netanyahu. If he bows to any compromise that takes away power from the elites, he will likely be repaid by getting into his own legal issues.

Just to understand the Sa'ar situation:

https://twitter.com/Yoav_Frank/status/1640272642228776961

And

https://twitter.com/Yoav_Frank/status/1640272648901894144

Which held true until he changed his tune, ostensibly to protect himself from prosecution (and political price).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #87 on: March 27, 2023, 05:57:48 PM »
All you see on TV is a mass of Israeli flags. They are killing it on the media front.
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Offline moe8555

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #88 on: March 28, 2023, 07:22:18 AM »
BTW, Arab citizens are exempt from the draft, but that seems to bother no one.

That's not true at all.  There are plenty of middle-of-the-ground calls for either army service OR national service for all, including Arabs & Haredi.  I personally think that would make more sense than mandatory draft for all.

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #89 on: March 28, 2023, 01:51:23 PM »
That's not true at all.  There are plenty of middle-of-the-ground calls for either army service OR national service for all, including Arabs & Haredi.  I personally think that would make more sense than mandatory draft for all.

Any mandatory anything is a non-starter for (certain parts of) the chareidi public.
Respecting rights of the "minority" should include respecting a significant minority (~40 of the country - Arabs+chareidim) that see no positive value in mandatory national service.

Offline S209

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #90 on: March 28, 2023, 02:33:01 PM »
https://www.vox.com/politics/2023/3/28/23658213/supreme-court-neil-gorsuch-donziger-united-states-prosecutors
At the very end, there’s an interesting quote from the Federalist Papers which is relevant to the Israeli reform conflict:

Quote
As Alexander Hamilton wrote in the Federalist Papers, the judiciary is not supposed to have this much power. It is supposed to be, in Hamilton’s words, “the weakest of the three departments of power,” in part because it “must ultimately depend upon the aid of the executive arm even for the efficacy of its judgments.”


Source: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed78.asp
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #91 on: March 28, 2023, 07:53:03 PM »
https://www.commentary.org/abe-greenwald/protests-in-israel-come-to-a-head/

Didn't listen to the entire thing yet, but Senor is starting off and laying the background using the talking points of the Bolsheviks.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2023, 07:58:10 PM by ExGingi »
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Offline moe8555

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #93 on: March 29, 2023, 02:33:03 AM »
Any mandatory anything is a non-starter for (certain parts of) the chareidi public.
Respecting rights of the "minority" should include respecting a significant minority (~40 of the country - Arabs+chareidim) that see no positive value in mandatory national service.

Well, I don't think the current mandatory/people's army system is going away anytime soon.  And I don't think the public that takes part in it is willing to maintain the current status quo any longer.  At face value, that essentially means the country is on its way toward a civil war or a drastic change in the system of both national and local government/territorial jurisdictions.   Or, the setting in motion of a rusting away / self-implosion process by which all segments of the population decide that they're done being active participants in defense and the economy (i.e. negative emigration of people and companies, increased corruption, an increase in the already rampant take-take-take mentality, formation of new companies abroad, etc.).  The end result is most likely the same: the end.  I live here, hope I'm wrong.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2023, 02:39:13 AM by moe8555 »

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #94 on: March 29, 2023, 03:32:03 AM »
Well, I don't think the current mandatory/people's army system is going away anytime soon.  And I don't think the public that takes part in it is willing to maintain the current status quo any longer. 
agreed on both points, which is a shame.
The current system is maintained because certain powerful parts of society regard it a supreme value. The charaidim and arabs tolerate it, at best.
Other than Switzerland, I cannot think of a western democracy that has a draft.
I do think that arguments in the political environment have to be made in a way that speaks to the values of your opponent, not preaching to the choir.
What is good for the goose, is good for the gander. A leftist CANNOT be allowed to hide behind "democratic" principles when they favor his values, and ignore them when they are inconvenient.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2023, 03:37:47 AM by yfr bachur »

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #95 on: March 29, 2023, 04:10:26 AM »
agreed on both points, which is a shame.
The current system is maintained because certain powerful parts of society regard it a supreme value. The charaidim and arabs tolerate it, at best.
Other than Switzerland, I cannot think of a western democracy that has a draft.
I do think that arguments in the political environment have to be made in a way that speaks to the values of your opponent, not preaching to the choir.
What is good for the goose, is good for the gander. A leftist CANNOT be allowed to hide behind "democratic" principles when they favor his values, and ignore them when they are inconvenient.

I'm not so sure it's accurate to say that it's solely maintained because powerful parts of society regard it a supreme value.  At the end of the day, there are people from all walks of society in the army, many of them happy to serve even in combat positions, many of them on the right and/or religious end of the political spectrum.  I also think comparing to Western democracies is a bit of an oversimplification - especially Switzerland, which to my knowledge is not threatened by any internal or external entity at all.  You can't ignore the geopolitical environment in which Israel resides: Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, etc., and that necessitates the certainty of a strong, prepared military.  "Old-guard" interests aside, I don't think anyone or any party would be willing to be the one that signs off on a conversion to a professional military, and all the uncertainty that it could bring, since the cost of failure would be of existential proportions.

In terms of "where do we go from here:" no doubt, there is a massive lack of good faith and open communications among all players.  And in light of the circumstances, and the stakes, the only reasonable resolution would be meeting in the middle, as I had mentioned.  I don't think it would be unreasonable to have mandatory civil/national service for the populations unwilling to be drafted, on terms suitable to their lifestyle (i.e. separation of genders, time to fulfill religious obligations, etc.), and within their own communities (i.e. neighborhood beautification, etc.).  I don't think anyone needs to be forced to comingle with the other gender, be bused to some remote area outside of their community, etc.  I don't think it would lead to lifestyle destruction.  I think it would go a long way and mend wounds, while showing that "we too" can do something tangible for the good of the country.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2023, 04:14:48 AM by moe8555 »

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #96 on: March 29, 2023, 04:44:49 AM »
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Offline efflpetzel

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #97 on: March 29, 2023, 11:28:44 AM »
An interesting take on the aftermath from the Jewish Press:
https://www.jewishpress.com/blogs/muqata/two-sides-won-and-the-anarchists-lost/2023/03/28/
Sounds like Benny Ganz wrote this article

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #98 on: March 29, 2023, 01:30:32 PM »
An interesting take on the aftermath from the Jewish Press:
https://www.jewishpress.com/blogs/muqata/two-sides-won-and-the-anarchists-lost/2023/03/28/
Aftermath? Isn’t it still ongoing? Sounds like the first bill might still pass any second.
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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #99 on: March 29, 2023, 01:38:11 PM »
I don't think it would be unreasonable to have mandatory civil/national service for the populations unwilling to be drafted, on terms suitable to their lifestyle (i.e. separation of genders, time to fulfill religious obligations, etc.), and within their own communities (i.e. neighborhood beautification, etc.).  I don't think anyone needs to be forced to comingle with the other gender, be bused to some remote area outside of their community, etc.  I don't think it would lead to lifestyle destruction. 

Compulsory national service is a non starter for reasons too complex and nuanced to go into here. This was tried in the 50s with a huge pushback.

I think it would go a long way and mend wounds, while showing that "we too" can do something tangible for the good of the country.

Zaka does good for the country
Hatzalah does good for the country
Yad Sarah does good for the country
Yad Ezra v'Shulamit does good for the country
Ezer M'Tzion does good for the country
The huge numbers of chreidi stundents attending yeshivos and semenaris from overseas pump a lot of cash into the econmy servs the country.
And many more I'm sure I'm missing.

Somehow things are only equel if evreyone gets forced to do something... Why?