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Here are the pointers.

The Supreme Court is not elected by representatives of the people. They are elected by other Supreme Court justices as well as from the Israel Bar Association.

The Supreme Court has the ultimate say on any law passed in Israel. They govern purely on "feelings", there is no constitution they base rulings on. This means that if the Knesset passes a bill regardless by what % of MK's voting for the bill. The SC can cancel that law/bill by a simple majority and the knesset cannot do anything about it.

The reform bill basically wants to give the elected officials of the Knesset the ability to choose who should be on the SC just like in the USA. They also want to take away the ability of the SC to cancel basic laws. They want to put the power back in the hands of the knesset who are democratically elected by the people.

This terrifies the left in Israel since they know they will never have a majority again in the Knesset. They will always need to rely on people like Lieberman, who although sat with Lapid is generally Right Wing, Gantz as well is Center Right and will also want more right wing judges if it was up to the Knesset. The left in Israel has only one thing preventing a true right wing country. That is the SC and that is why they are fighting until the bitter end.



« Last edited by username on March 27, 2023, 12:28:23 PM »

Author Topic: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....  (Read 5394 times)

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #100 on: March 29, 2023, 04:20:54 PM »
I'm not so sure it's accurate to say that it's solely maintained because powerful parts of society regard it a supreme value.  At the end of the day, there are people from all walks of society in the army, many of them happy to serve even in combat positions, many of them on the right and/or religious end of the political spectrum.  I also think comparing to Western democracies is a bit of an oversimplification - especially Switzerland, which to my knowledge is not threatened by any internal or external entity at all.  You can't ignore the geopolitical environment in which Israel resides: Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, etc., and that necessitates the certainty of a strong, prepared military.  "Old-guard" interests aside, I don't think anyone or any party would be willing to be the one that signs off on a conversion to a professional military, and all the uncertainty that it could bring, since the cost of failure would be of existential proportions.
The left old guard regard it as a supreme value because of the melting pot it provides, the ability to mold ideal israelis
The right/Datal regard it as a supreme value because of nationalism and/or religious ideals.
The fact is that the officer class in the army prefer to transition to a professional army for many reasons (the cost reduction of retraining from scratch your entire army every three years; the increase in training and proffesionalism - todays army is basicly a bunch of college boys who were just trained by by a bunch of college girls who just learned how to train soldiers; the reduction of unneeded manpower....) just its political suicide for a politician to advocate it.
In terms of "where do we go from here:" no doubt, there is a massive lack of good faith and open communications among all players.  And in light of the circumstances, and the stakes, the only reasonable resolution would be meeting in the middle, as I had mentioned.  I don't think it would be unreasonable to have mandatory civil/national service for the populations unwilling to be drafted, on terms suitable to their lifestyle (i.e. separation of genders, time to fulfill religious obligations, etc.), and within their own communities (i.e. neighborhood beautification, etc.).  I don't think anyone needs to be forced to comingle with the other gender, be bused to some remote area outside of their community, etc.  I don't think it would lead to lifestyle destruction.  I think it would go a long way and mend wounds, while showing that "we too" can do something tangible for the good of the country.
I understand that you have no idea what goes on here. Why the different groups are against the draft...
Mandatory anything is a NONSTARTER.
Populations unwilling to drafted are unwilling for the government to require them to perform any "National Service".
I doubt that even mainstream Gedolim (Degel/Agudah) would go along with it, even if you could convince the lawmakers to include attending yeshiva as fulfilling national service requirements.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #101 on: March 29, 2023, 04:37:46 PM »
From Rav Avigdor's wisdom.

Quote
Q:
How could you say that Jews should avoid doing military service in Israel if there are millions of Jews who need to be protected?

A:
Oh, this is a harking back to an old discussion. So in case youíre a Zionist, keep your blood pressure down because Iím not going to spare you anything. However, you donít have to accept what Iím telling you Ė but Iím not going to accept what youíre saying.

So, Iíll ask this gentleman here, the questioner, whatís he doing here? Why is he a slacker?! There are millions of Jews who have to be protected Ė let him go and sign up. The answer is, you have your reasons. You think, maybe, that right now you want to study here and become a physician and eventually youíll go there and youíll help them out in that way. So, you have an idea to help the people there in a different way; not by putting on a uniform right now. Thatís your idea of helping them; it sounds reasonable.

So, we also have ideas of how to help the people in Eretz Yisroel. And one idea is to send a lot of money to the yeshivos, to poor talmidei chachomim. That money goes into the economy. Any money you send is going to be spent there; itís spent in the butcher shops and in the grocery shops. Itís spent on products and youíre therefore supporting the people who work in the factories. Whatever money you send to talmidei chachomim living there goes straight into the economy. Itís very important. Believe me, if you asked the people at the head of the state, ďWould you excuse about twenty or fifty or a hundred or a thousand people from the army to go to the United States and raise big sums for your economy?Ē so theyíd gladly agree, because money is the blood of a nation. You canít make war without money.

So, if you really want to help out, Iíll give you a list. I have a list of blue ribbon poor families who are doing a big job for Eretz Yisroel. Theyíre raising a lot of children. You know, there are other Jews who are not raising children. Eretz Yisroel is a country of a great deal of abortions. Authorities have said that at least a million Jewish children were aborted from the beginning of the state until a few years ago. That was years back; now itís much more. All the while, the Arabs are having children like nobodyís business. They never had so many children before. Because the Arabs in Eretz Yisroel are getting the best medical treatment. The Arabs in Israel are increasing more than the Arabs in any other place in the world.

So how long will it take before the Jews will be outnumbered? Itís only a matter of time. Even right now thereís a big problem Ė the Jews are dwindling and the Arabs are snowballing. So here you have some Jews who are busy trying to equalize the population; they are the hope of the future Ė the apikorsim in Tel-Aviv are not doing their part Ė so you should send money to them and that money goes into the lifeblood of the nation. Thatís one way of helping to defend the Am Yisroel. Itís a beautiful way of supporting the people there.

And if you want another way to help the Jews there, pay attention. You have to know השם איש מלחמה Ė Hashem is the one making the wars against the State of Israel. Now, of course they wouldnít believe that, but we do! Hakodosh Boruch Hu is the Man of War. בעל מלחמות Ė He makes the wars. And there are reasons why He makes wars. Do you know why He makes wars on Israel? Listen to me; but keep your blood pressure down. A man told me today that he was in Israel in 1966. He went to a movie. This is a kind of a man whoís not a shomer mitzvos. He went to a movie and he saw Ė now, Iíll have to wash my mouth out after I get through telling this to you Ė he saw movies where a certain form of toeiva was being practiced in the movie, on the screen. Now, what that means, itís enough, I canít tell you anymore. And it was supposed to be only for adults. It means past sixteen. Sixteen and up, thatís adults over there. But he was in places, he was in various theaters there, and this is what he told me. He told me that he saw children of five and six years old at these movies. Which means that the youth in Eretz Yisroel are being conditioned for a life of degeneracy.

The gays are planning next year an international world conference of gays in Yerushalayim. And he said that they have two synagogues of gays in Eretz Yisroel. He said three but I want to make it within the bounds of surety. And in Tel Aviv you have anything that you can find in Times Square Ė theyíre not behind a bit.

Now, we want to save העם היושב בציון Ė we want to help out the Jews who live in Eretz Yisroel. We want to stop the wars; and therefore if weíre going to fight against the adverse influences there, if weíre going to exert pressure on the government that they should remedy these evils, maybe we can have a hand in protecting the Jews in Eretz Yisroel. We want them to wipe out pornography. We want them to stop drafting girls in the army. Because girls in the army means only one thing. Like that Israeli general who wrote a book about the Israeli army. We can trust what he tells us. And he states openly that for most girls the induction into the army is their first experience in znus. For most Israeli girls the army is a house of harlotry. So now you have an institution, the Israeli army, which is one big house of prostitution and the girls are forced into it. Now thatís not my statement. Itís a statement by a general who wrote a history of the Israel Defense Forces and he makes that statement openly. He doesnít make it in a clandestine secret way that you have to read between the lines. He says it openly. Theyíre not ashamed.

So we have to exert pressure because we donít want that. Because השם אלקיך מתהלך בקרב מחניך להצילך מאויביך. It says Hashem walks in your midst to help you against your enemy. But it says ולא יראה בך ערוות דבר ושב מאחריך Ė If Heíll see immorality among you, so the Shechinah will depart. It means Heíll let you be defeated. So if we want to help the people in Eretz Yisroel be protected from the enemies, itís our job to speak up and fight against all of the wickedness in the State of Israel. So, just as this young man who doesnít go right now and put on a uniform because he wants to help them eventually by becoming a physician, so weíre also helping in our own way. Itís a very big help if you write letters and protest against whatís going on there. Of course, now thereís a better regime. Up till now there was a Marxist regime but now thereís a better regime and letís hope that these things are going to change.

TAPE # 204 (February 1978)

Offline gozalim

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #102 on: March 29, 2023, 05:02:20 PM »
I don't think it would be unreasonable to have mandatory civil/national service for the populations unwilling to be drafted, on terms suitable to their lifestyle (i.e. separation of genders, time to fulfill religious obligations, etc.), and within their own communities (i.e. neighborhood beautification, etc.).  I don't think anyone needs to be forced to comingle with the other gender, be bused to some remote area outside of their community, etc.  I don't think it would lead to lifestyle destruction.  I think it would go a long way and mend wounds, while showing that "we too" can do something tangible for the good of the country.

In an ideal, good-faith world, this would be true.
In practice, the same powers that insist we maintain a "national army"/draft, will also insist on abusing this segment of it. not least of the problems is the current Supreme court system.
As has already happened

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #103 on: March 29, 2023, 05:22:20 PM »
In an ideal, good-faith world, this would be true.
In practice, the same powers that insist we maintain a "national army"/draft, will also insist on abusing this segment of it. not least of the problems is the current Supreme court system.
As has already happened

It is impossible to accept submission to forces/entities that could force their own values on you at a whim (sometimes even in a backhanded manner)
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #104 on: March 29, 2023, 09:12:31 PM »

The fact is that the officer class in the army prefer to transition to a professional army for many reasons (the cost reduction of retraining from scratch your entire army every three years; the increase in training and proffesionalism - todays army is basicly a bunch of college boys who were just trained by by a bunch of college girls who just learned how to train soldiers; the reduction of unneeded manpower....)

I thought the idea behind the draft is to have a large number of reservists who could be called up if necessary.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #105 on: March 30, 2023, 01:18:48 AM »
It is impossible to accept submission to forces/entities that could force their own values on you at a whim (sometimes even in a backhanded manner)

I would actually say that statement describes the sentiments of those against the judicial legislation exceedingly well.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #106 on: March 30, 2023, 01:35:51 AM »
Compulsory national service is a non starter for reasons too complex and nuanced to go into here. This was tried in the 50s with a huge pushback.

Zaka does good for the country
Hatzalah does good for the country
Yad Sarah does good for the country
Yad Ezra v'Shulamit does good for the country
Ezer M'Tzion does good for the country
The huge numbers of chreidi stundents attending yeshivos and semenaris from overseas pump a lot of cash into the econmy servs the country.
And many more I'm sure I'm missing.

Somehow things are only equel if evreyone gets forced to do something... Why?

Can you provide more insight on what happened in the 50s and the circumstances?

I certainly do not deny that all the activities you listed are great and contribute to society.  But I don't see, logically, how "equality" could exist if one population is forced to do something, while another population is on a volunteer and at- will basis, both in terms of whether or not to do anything at all and which organization to do it in.

Now, with that in mind, the Israeli "right" has been suggesting in their arguments that demographics are in their favor.  If we assume that's true, where does that take us?  Can a rational person truly assume that in some future time, a minority will agree to continue to serve in the military while the majority is exempt?  I'm exaggerating a bit, but that starts to take on connotations of apartheid and a modern form of slavery.  That leads to my aforementioned concerns about a setting in motion of a national "rusting away." Logically, if no side compromises, it could be akin to apathy and an accepted fate of national suicide.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2023, 01:45:12 AM by moe8555 »

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #107 on: March 30, 2023, 01:53:11 AM »
From Rav Avigdor's wisdom.

I read the whole thing, and I'm sorry, but that was a gross over exaggeration and clearly based on hearsay, assumptions, and stereotyping.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #108 on: March 30, 2023, 03:44:17 AM »
Aftermath? Isnít it still ongoing? Sounds like the first bill might still pass any second.
I refer to the extraordinary protest days that lead to delaying the bill. The matzav is definitely still ongoing.
Quote from: Alexsei
You can't fight intolerance with intolerance.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #109 on: March 30, 2023, 03:45:39 AM »
I read the whole thing, and I'm sorry, but that was a gross over exaggeration and clearly based on hearsay, assumptions, and stereotyping.
Are you sure? In 1978?
Quote from: Alexsei
You can't fight intolerance with intolerance.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #110 on: March 30, 2023, 03:56:05 AM »
Are you sure? In 1978?

Yes, I saw it was from 1978.  Not sure I understand what you're asking or getting at?  The content is still timely in the sense that it represents an opinion that still holds support to this day.  But that doesn't change my comment.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2023, 04:29:46 AM by moe8555 »

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #111 on: March 30, 2023, 04:32:17 AM »
Yes, I saw it was from 1978.  Not sure I understand what you're asking or getting at?  The contents is still timely in the sense that it represents an opinion that still holds support to this day.  But that doesn't change my comment.
Okay, so to address your assertions: I concede to exaggeration but not gross over exaggeration. As is clear from Israeli historian Howard Sachar (did you read his history? I did), in those years the Chilonim were blatant about their intentions to mainstream the Charedim. They were more ideological as a group then. Those ideologues still exist today but they are no longer mainstream. Unfortunately, a lot of them get into government positions and try to use their power to force the issue. Back then, though, the rest of the population who associated with them was behind them.
Stereotyping? Not sure the accusation is relevant, so I'll concede it also.
Hearsay? Of course. But was it accurate or not? Same goes for assumptions.
Quote from: Alexsei
You can't fight intolerance with intolerance.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #112 on: March 30, 2023, 07:59:44 AM »
Okay, so to address your assertions: I concede to exaggeration but not gross over exaggeration. As is clear from Israeli historian Howard Sachar (did you read his history? I did), in those years the Chilonim were blatant about their intentions to mainstream the Charedim. They were more ideological as a group then. Those ideologues still exist today but they are no longer mainstream. Unfortunately, a lot of them get into government positions and try to use their power to force the issue. Back then, though, the rest of the population who associated with them was behind them.
Stereotyping? Not sure the accusation is relevant, so I'll concede it also.
Hearsay? Of course. But was it accurate or not? Same goes for assumptions.

Well, I guess we're sort of on the same page.  During my time here, I have literally not once encountered a person that has explicitly and blatantly demanded that Haredi "assimilate" in terms of abandoning religion and becoming secular.  Obviously, I understand the argument that mandatory military service could be an implicit form of this.  But interesting, I was not aware of such a movement, and I have not read Howard Sachar's works.

I still think my bottom line in the other post needs to be addressed (in general as a society, not necessarily by anyone here in particular), in which I don't see the possibility of a positive outcome for the country if there is no compromise (which the responses here seem to indicate that there won't be under any circumstances).

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #113 on: March 30, 2023, 12:50:24 PM »
Well, I guess we're sort of on the same page.  During my time here, I have literally not once encountered a person that has explicitly and blatantly demanded that Haredi "assimilate" in terms of abandoning religion and becoming secular.  Obviously, I understand the argument that mandatory military service could be an implicit form of this.  But interesting, I was not aware of such a movement, and I have not read Howard Sachar's works.


Ah so you just missed the basic ideals of the Zionist movement.

IDK about Brisk or Eidoh. But Zionism in it's essence is about destroying Yiddishkeit by saying נהיה ככל הגוים בית ישראל and כוחי ועוצם ידי, rather than אין אומתנו אומה אלא בתורתיה and עזרי מעם ה' עושה שמים וארץ.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #114 on: March 30, 2023, 12:53:01 PM »
During my time here, I have literally not once encountered a person that has explicitly and blatantly demanded that Haredi "assimilate" in terms of abandoning religion and becoming secular.

This is an extremely bitter part of modern Israel's history. We don't know how many Yaldei Teman were abducted, and there was most definitely a "religious zeal" among segments of early secular Zionists in getting frum Jews to abandon Yiddishkeit. Not to mention in the years preceding the creation of the state their efforts to prevent frum Jews from emigrating to Palestine.

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #115 on: March 30, 2023, 01:03:47 PM »
This is an extremely bitter part of modern Israel's history. We don't know how many Yaldei Teman were abducted, and there was most definitely a "religious zeal" among segments of early secular Zionists in getting frum Jews to abandon Yiddishkeit. Not to mention in the years preceding the creation of the state their efforts to prevent frum Jews from emigrating to Palestine.

Yaldei Temen, Yaldei Teheran, Yaldei Morocco etc. The majority of our Sephardic brethren who were forced into freiya kibbutzim with the sole purpose of assimilating them with the secular Israelis.

Rav Chaim Brisker said - "ניט ווייל זיי דארפן א מדינה שמד׳ן זיי אידן, כדי צו שמד׳ן אידן דארפן זיי א מדינה"

This is just ignoring the basics.


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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #116 on: March 30, 2023, 11:21:05 PM »
And this is why they refuse to allow נחל חרדי to operate in a way that anyone with that name would accept.
It's a feature, not a bug

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #117 on: April 01, 2023, 07:09:59 PM »
I thought the idea behind the draft is to have a large number of reservists who could be called up if necessary.
Um, so why THREE years of service, with a large percentage in Noncombat or filler roles?
It is impossible to accept submission to forces/entities that could force their own values on you at a whim (sometimes even in a backhanded manner)
I would actually say that statement describes the sentiments of those against the judicial legislation exceedingly well.

That's my point exactly. They choose to complain about the horrors of the perceived possibility of having "Right" "religious" views forced on them while ignoring the DECADES that they or their ideological forebears forced their views and policies on the right and religious/.

Can you provide more insight on what happened in the 50s and the circumstances?

You really need to brush up on your history if you want to engage in opinionating on the left/right, religious/secular divide/debates in modern israeli society.

I certainly do not deny that all the activities you listed are great and contribute to society.  But I don't see, logically, how "equality" could exist if one population is forced to do something, while another population is on a volunteer and at- will basis, both in terms of whether or not to do anything at all and which organization to do it in.

Abolish the draft. Problem solved.

Now, with that in mind, the Israeli "right" has been suggesting in their arguments that demographics are in their favor.  If we assume that's true, where does that take us?  Can a rational person truly assume that in some future time, a minority will agree to continue to serve in the military while the majority is exempt?  I'm exaggerating a bit, but that starts to take on connotations of apartheid and a modern form of slavery.  That leads to my aforementioned concerns about a setting in motion of a national "rusting away." Logically, if no side compromises, it could be akin to apathy and an accepted fate of national suicide.
As above.
The "Right" as a majority group are not against the draft.
The Chareidi spectrum, as a minority, are generaly against the draft.

As long as the division is framed as a one of left/right moral values, peace process, the right is the definite majority of the future. (leftists simply don't procreate at a sufficient rate to keep pace) but in any given election you can divide the electorate on other issues, where the left may have a majority

During my time here, I have literally not once encountered a person that has explicitly and blatantly demanded that Haredi "assimilate" in terms of abandoning religion and becoming secular.  Obviously, I understand the argument that mandatory military service could be an implicit form of this. 

Where do you live exactly? Do you never listen to the news?
Do the anti semitic tropes and demands that come out of the mouths of people like Leiberman and Lapid totally fly over your head?

I still think my bottom line in the other post needs to be addressed (in general as a society, not necessarily by anyone here in particular), in which I don't see the possibility of a positive outcome for the country if there is no compromise (which the responses here seem to indicate that there won't be under any circumstances).

The left needs to understand that they have thrown their weight and power around for decades, and the right and religious DO NOT TRUST THEM AT ALL. period stop. Let the left/irreligious come to the table with humility, understanding that the bulk of the concessions will have to come from their side, and we'll have a place to start.

I and every right thinking person have stacks of things that could be done, changes to be made, to improve the country and political climate. but they all mean changing leftwing GODS.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2023, 07:26:59 PM by yfr bachur »

Offline moe8555

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #118 on: April 02, 2023, 04:14:57 AM »

Abolish the draft. Problem solved.

Where do you live exactly? Do you never listen to the news?
Do the anti semitic tropes and demands that come out of the mouths of people like Leiberman and Lapid totally fly over your head?

I just wanted to elaborate on these two points you mentioned.

I think everyone, regardless of stance, can agree that abolishing the draft is not on the table in the foreseeable future.  For discussions to be relevant and grounded in reality, that point has to kept in mind as the base case.  Proposed solutions need to be based around this concept.  How does that affect your thoughts about what's in store for the future viability of the country?  I think there is plenty of room for creative solutions.  Someone posted above a long list of organizations that Haredi people tend to participate in (Yad L'Sarah, Hatzola, etc.).  Is there a reason active, voluntary participation for a certain duration of time couldn't be recognized by society as equivalent to completing "mandatory" service?  I don't see why not!  When there is enough goodwill, it is possible to reach a solution.

Regarding Lapid and Liberman, of course I'm familiar with their rhetoric - but they are politicians / demagogues.  I was referring to regular people that I've come into contact with over the years, in a wide variety of settings (army, work, studies, friends, family, etc.).
« Last Edit: April 02, 2023, 04:21:57 AM by moe8555 »

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Re: Israel: Judicial Reform & Future of Democracy....
« Reply #119 on: April 02, 2023, 09:05:03 AM »
I just wanted to elaborate on these two points you mentioned.

I think everyone, regardless of stance, can agree that abolishing the draft is not on the table in the foreseeable future.  For discussions to be relevant and grounded in reality, that point has to kept in mind as the base case.  Proposed solutions need to be based around this concept.  How does that affect your thoughts about what's in store for the future viability of the country?  I think there is plenty of room for creative solutions.  Someone posted above a long list of organizations that Haredi people tend to participate in (Yad L'Sarah, Hatzola, etc.).  Is there a reason active, voluntary participation for a certain duration of time couldn't be recognized by society as equivalent to completing "mandatory" service?  I don't see why not!  When there is enough goodwill, it is possible to reach a solution.

Regarding Lapid and Liberman, of course I'm familiar with their rhetoric - but they are politicians / demagogues.  I was referring to regular people that I've come into contact with over the years, in a wide variety of settings (army, work, studies, friends, family, etc.).
your naive if you think it's about army and equity.
Those who do army service and live thier lives as Torah observant Jews are ridiculed, harassed, and disciplined by their peers and commanding officers in a regular basis.