Messianism among Lubavitch

[Dan]

i would daven b'yichidus in timbuktu.  and i wouldn't eat the food of mishichists, not anywhere.   now you know a bit more about "people like him"
because if someone has a din of a tipish/shoteh, then they would not be reliable as far as kashrus is concerned. at least not in my book (or those of many others careful about what they eat).   

Excellent, so you should never eat the food from my house as I believe he still may be moshiach and I should not eat the food from your house as you are tipish or worse for being willing to castigate hundreds of thousands of practicing jews as tipshim and incompetents for believing that their leader could be moshiach.

Oh, and I hope you don't eat any chassidshe hashgochas, b/c this philosophy isn't just limited to chabad as others have attested in this thread.

[Drago]

Has anything good come out of this thread?
Seems to me that nobody is going to change anyone's mind even one iota.

Should I lock it?

Keep it open. Some of the discussion may be heated, but it's good to hear rational ppl discussing it.
It's often harder in person, where emotions could quickly take over.

[Dan]

I actually think it's much healthier in person, which is why I'm inclined to lock this up already.
Everything that needs to have been said has already been said.  Now it's just barbs.

[yare]

Excellent, so you should never eat the food from my house as I believe he still may be moshiach and I should not eat the food from your house as you are tipish or worse for being willing to castigate hundreds of thousands of practicing jews as tipshim and incompetents for believing that their leader could be moshiach.

now enough with your "castigating hundreds of thousands of jews" which you keep re
Oh, and I hope you don't eat any chassidshe hashgochas, b/c this philosophy isn't just limited to chabad as others have attested in this thread.

your emotions are getting in the way of your reading before responding.  i said i would not eat the food of a meshichist machshir.    thinking that he might turn out to be meshiach does not make you a meshichist.  there are many and more people that could be meshiach.   thinking that he necessarily is meshiach, makes you a meshchist.         

[Dan]

Sorry, but if you asked any meshichist if they would accept R' Shach as moshiach if he were chosen they would all say yes in a heartbeat.  Sure they may want to clarify things with Eliyahu, but that wouldn't hinder them.

Thus nobody truly believes that the Rebbe and only the Rebbe can be moshiach.  And refusing to daven in such a person's shul or eating their food just because of that belief is more foolish IMHO than believing that a holy and learned person to be a strong candidate of being moshiach.  There is nothing halachikly wrong with that belief.

And I hope you don't drink any Bartenura wine btw

[Ergel]

Many people don't drink Bartenura wine.

I haven't read through the whole thread, can you point me to the proof that moshiach can be dead? I'd it just sanhedrin 98 or is there something else also?

[Dan]

Many people don't drink Bartenura wine.

I haven't read through the whole thread, can you point me to the proof that moshiach can be dead? I'd it just sanhedrin 98 or is there something else also?

Excellent, more for me.

Read the entire thread, no point running in circles.

[moko]

And I hope you don't drink any Bartenura wine btw

why would i? sprite is so much cheaper

[Drago]

Many people don't drink Bartenura wine.

I haven't read through the whole thread, can you point me to the proof that moshiach can be dead? I'd it just sanhedrin 98 or is there something else also?

JJ has quoted a few things. Search for his posts.
I also linked to s/t by R. Student earlier in the thread about the same topic.

[Dan]

why would i? sprite is so much cheaper

Fair enough but I don't think that will qualify for kiddush.

JJ has quoted a few things. Search for his posts.
I also linked to s/t by R. Student earlier in the thread about the same topic.

A decent job as well:
http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php3?t=73

[moko]

Fair enough but I don't think that will qualify for kiddush.

darn it. what i do about the past 20 yrs

[Dan]

darn it. what i do about the past 20 yrs

Be happy you didn't use Bartenura.  According to the lovely people in this thread you're better off making kiddush on Sprite than trusting a meshichist like R' G.M.G. that Bartenura is kosher.

[Lamdan]

Excellent, so you should never eat the food from my house as I believe he still may be moshiach and I should not eat the food from your house as you are tipish or worse for being willing to castigate hundreds of thousands of practicing jews as tipshim and incompetents for believing that their leader could be moshiach.

Oh, and I hope you don't eat any chassidshe hashgochas, b/c this philosophy isn't just limited to chabad as others have attested in this thread.

That other chassiduses think their rebbe is moshiach is simply untrue, let's stop repeating this lie.
Almost all jews except for Chabad think that they have no freaking clue who moshiach is, Chabadskers and a few guys that collect by the Kosel think they know who moshiach is.

[Dan]

That other chassiduses think their rebbe is moshiach is simply untrue, let's stop repeating this lie.

You're telling me that no other chosid believes his rebbe is a candidate to be moshiach?
You are delusional once again in that case.

[moko]

ive barely chimed in here (mainly do too the fact that i dont know that much about chabad-despite my mother teaching in a chabad girls school and having many chabad friends and co workers) but i was under the impression that satmar hated chabad more than litvish do and now we have seen both satmar rebbes hosted by shluchim and making mishabeirach donations to them- that would seem to me to be a good thing

[Lamdan]

You're telling me that no other chosid believes his rebbe is a candidate to be moshiach?
You are delusional once again in that case.

They don't think about who moshiach is. The only people that think about who's a candidate for moshiach, are chabadskers, this is the facts, I am not delusional.

And BTW, b4 gimmel tamuz chabadskers weren't just saying that their rebbe is a candidate for moshiach. And for a lond time afterwards.

[yare]

Sorry, but if you asked any meshichist if they would accept R' Shach as moshiach if he were chosen they would all say yes in a heartbeat.  Sure they may want to clarify things with Eliyahu, but that wouldn't hinder them.

Thus nobody truly believes that the Rebbe and only the Rebbe can be moshiach.  And refusing to daven in such a person's shul or eating their food just because of that belief is more foolish IMHO than believing that a holy and learned person to be a strong candidate of being moshiach.  There is nothing halachikly wrong with that belief.

you're speaking a very moderate chabbad ideology over here on the forums, but i and many others from our experiences have found otherwise.    just because they would "accept" who eliyahu names (lmao btw, that you think there's a need to say that), does not mean they don't fully believe at this point that the rebbe IS meshiach.   is, not, could be.     that's a meshichist. there are many of them.    you claim they're an "extremist" element, but it seems like these "extremists" are all over the chabad enclaves, including 770, crown heights, cfar chabad etc.   and there is a lot wrong with that belief.  and it possibly borders on kfira.   and it certainly entitles one to not be interested on relying on such people for the food he puts in his mouth.             

if you really believe as you say on this thread, which is questionable, then you don't fall into that group.  good for you.   but don't sit here playing holier than thou about "castigating hundreds of thousands....," when there are so many who do hold that way.    and on top of that, you don't for a second hesitate to stereotype and castigate litvoks, who by the way, number a lot more than chabadskers.   so stop the preaching.

and there is no other chasiddus that espouses such beliefs.  if you claim otherwise, show a source.

And I hope you don't drink any Bartenura wine btw

sure don't.   enjoy it.   

[Dan]

You don't need to take my claims, I couldn't care less.  There are over 3,000 chabad houses and 95% of them are not meshichist. Over 99% of chabad houses in the USA are not run by meshichists.  Go across the country and verify that for yourself.

Among the communities that I'm intimately familiar with: There are dozens lubabs in Cleveland and I can attest that I don't know of a single meshichist.  In Pittsburgh there are hundreds of lubabs and there are maybe a couple of meshichists and they don't daven at the only chabad house.

It's no shock that the noisy ones in 770s basement and places like Venice and Tzfas stand out though, after all what would make a regular quiet person be noticed?

To not eat food or daven with a minyan with someone when they have legitimate halachic basis for their beliefs though has no basis in halacha. I'd argue that davening without a minyan in that situation as you say you would is definitely against halacha.

[henche]

When y'all finish arguing, I hope the one in Cambridge is still ok. Because I eat there most shabbosos.

[yare]

To not eat food or daven with a minyan with someone when they have legitimate halachic basis for their beliefs though has no basis in halacha.

like i said, i have no problem davening with or eating the food of a lubavitcher who believes the rebbe could be moshiach.   

i do have a problem of davening with and eating the food of a lubavitcher who believes the rebbe is moshiach.  there is no legitimate halachic basis for that belief.   

seems we're going in circles though.