Author Topic: The Future of Lakewood  (Read 517873 times)

Offline TimT

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2900 on: May 17, 2023, 04:10:31 PM »
Hard to say minhag hamakom applies to anywhere today especially in a place like Lakewood with dozens of separate kehillos and with a city that has almost no sheychis to the town it was 50 years ago.
And yet satmar in KY expects everyone in the surrounding neighborhoods to follow their rules.

Offline Moshe123

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2901 on: May 17, 2023, 04:12:42 PM »
And yet satmar in KY expects everyone in the surrounding neighborhoods to follow their rules.

Bh you don't hold their shitos on other things as well.

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2902 on: May 17, 2023, 04:58:46 PM »
The sign doesn't even write anything about Minhag Hamakom and how it would apply here.
The sign is entertaining and clownish. A city wide eiruv like some have been pushing for would be a Halachik disaster irrespective of the whole RAK and “minhag” business. This over the top rhetoric undermines the real issues.

Offline JMHO

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2903 on: May 17, 2023, 05:07:00 PM »
The sign is entertaining and clownish. A city wide eiruv like some have been pushing for would be a Halachik disaster irrespective of the whole RAK and “minhag” business. This over the top rhetoric undermines the real issues.
What are the 'real issues'?

Offline dm123

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2904 on: May 17, 2023, 05:07:35 PM »
The sign is entertaining and clownish. A city wide eiruv like some have been pushing for would be a Halachik disaster irrespective of the whole RAK and “minhag” business. This over the top rhetoric undermines the real issues.

Lakewood has more or different issues than other large cities? (excluding, as you seem to, the kpeida of minhag hamakom and RAK)

Online aygart

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2905 on: May 17, 2023, 05:10:44 PM »
The sign is entertaining and clownish. A city wide eiruv like some have been pushing for would be a Halachik disaster irrespective of the whole RAK and “minhag” business. This over the top rhetoric undermines the real issues.

The patchwork of mini eruvin has its own set of issues including people not knowing boundaries and various eruvei chatzeiros (and potentially bracha livatala) issues
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2906 on: May 17, 2023, 06:14:06 PM »
What are the 'real issues'?
קרפף to name one.

Some segments of כלל ישראל still keep that rule…

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2907 on: May 17, 2023, 06:19:19 PM »
The patchwork of mini eruvin has its own set of issues including people not knowing boundaries and various eruvei chatzeiros (and potentially bracha livatala) issues
There needs to be much more transparency and information dissemination about where euruvin begin and end all over town, that’s for sure. Unfortunately the anti “big eiruvin” faction feed that specific issue. But having a full city wide eiruv isn’t doable, even those that don’t have the anti big eiruv” shita agree to that.

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2908 on: May 17, 2023, 07:18:00 PM »
קרפף to name one.

Some segments of כלל ישראל still keep that rule…
That's not something that  can be termed "would be a Halachik disaster".

There are many that are meikel in instances that would apply to Lakewood, and that was done in pretty much every big city in Europe.

See some very interesting sources here: https://eruvinitiative.org/the-curious-case-of-the-karpef/

Offline liosac

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2909 on: May 17, 2023, 08:12:55 PM »
There needs to be much more transparency and information dissemination about where euruvin begin and end all over town, that’s for sure. Unfortunately the anti “big eiruvin” faction feed that specific issue. But having a full city wide eiruv isn’t doable, even those that don’t have the anti big eiruv” shita agree to that.
They do it in numerous other large cities where there are karfefs but aren’t shishim ribbui. Why would Lakewood not be doable?

Offline JMHO

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2910 on: May 17, 2023, 08:25:08 PM »
There needs to be much more transparency and information dissemination about where euruvin begin and end all over town, that’s for sure.
Who should research, collect and disseminate this information? Shouldn't each block/neighborhood have their own situation and then it's the responsibility of a new resident or guest to find out where the Eruv is?

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2911 on: May 17, 2023, 08:29:53 PM »
Who should research, collect and disseminate this information? Shouldn't each block/neighborhood have their own situation and then it's the responsibility of a new resident or guest to find out where the Eruv is?

It was once attempted but didn't end well.

A person walking for ten minutes from his house can conceivably walk through 6 or 7 eruvin which may or may not have properly made their eruvei chtzeiros blend them.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline JMHO

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2912 on: May 17, 2023, 08:32:02 PM »
It was once attempted but didn't end well.
By who? Is there a community organization or group that researches and disseminates this information?

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2913 on: May 17, 2023, 09:06:41 PM »
That's not something that  can be termed "would be a Halachik disaster".

There are many that are meikel in instances that would apply to Lakewood, and that was done in pretty much every big city in Europe.

See some very interesting sources here: https://eruvinitiative.org/the-curious-case-of-the-karpef/
The דבר שמואל is a massive kula, which is rejected by many achronim. The MB and Chazon Ish say not to rely on it. Cities in Europe that did rely on it had more pressing needs for an Eiruv as R Moshe explains.
What’s more is that Rav Moshe maintained that the דבר שמואל isn’t applicable to modern day cities, Rav Elyashiv as well.
Small wonder why for mainstream poskim it’s a non starter.

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2914 on: May 17, 2023, 09:10:40 PM »
They do it in numerous other large cities where there are karfefs but aren’t shishim ribbui. Why would Lakewood not be doable?
My guess is that urban cities likely have less karfefs than a city like Lakewood. To box out all the karfefs here would be a massive undertaking.

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2915 on: May 17, 2023, 09:15:01 PM »
it's the responsibility of a new resident or guest to find out where the Eruv is
Easier said than done. Many times it’s difficult and frustrating to find out where it is and who maintains it.
There ought to be a website with all the information. But the jihadists would go nuts.

Offline JMHO

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2916 on: May 17, 2023, 10:06:30 PM »
Easier said than done. Many times it’s difficult and frustrating to find out where it is and who maintains it.
There ought to be a website with all the information. But the jihadists would go nuts.
Who should research, collect and disseminate this information? Are you offering to create this website? It sounds like a great idea L'toeles Hatzibur!

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2917 on: May 17, 2023, 10:29:42 PM »
The דבר שמואל is a massive kula, which is rejected by many achronim. The MB and Chazon Ish say not to rely on it. Cities in Europe that did rely on it had more pressing needs for an Eiruv as R Moshe explains.
What’s more is that Rav Moshe maintained that the דבר שמואל isn’t applicable to modern day cities, Rav Elyashiv as well.
Small wonder why for mainstream poskim it’s a non starter.
This reminds me of the Hakdama of the Darchei Teshuva.

In any case, because the MB and Chazon Ish say not to rely on it doesn't mean that it has massive Halachic issues. There are way too many practicing Rabanim and gedoilim who used this Kula in practice. If you want to be machmir, be my guest, or figure out another way around it.

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2918 on: May 17, 2023, 10:33:36 PM »
Who should research, collect and disseminate this information? Are you offering to create this website? It sounds like a great idea L'toeles Hatzibur!
It was once attempted but didn't end well.

Offline imayid2

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Re: The Future of Lakewood
« Reply #2919 on: May 17, 2023, 10:42:59 PM »
In any case, because the MB and Chazon Ish say not to rely on it doesn't mean that it has massive Halachic issues. There are way too many practicing Rabanim and gedoilim who used this Kula in practice. If you want to be machmir, be my guest, or figure out another way around it.
Not sure why you’re ignoring Rav Moshe here.
Either way for mainstream poskim in the non chassidesh communities here it is indeed a big issue, one of the many pitfalls of a citywide eiruv. They would not want their communities put in a situation where there would be widespread michshal of people thinking there is a kosher eiruv when in their opinion, indeed according to the pashtus ההלכה, there is not. Not sure why you think they aren’t entitled to their opinion on this.