Author Topic: Messianism among Lubavitch  (Read 146751 times)

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 53941
  • Total likes: 2511
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #750 on: January 16, 2013, 07:34:48 PM »
I would say Standard is Nesi Doireinu
In his seforim? They say ZY"A.
When people talk about his? Then it's The Rebbe.
So what are you referring to?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline lcyitz

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 754
  • Total likes: 6
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #751 on: January 16, 2013, 07:37:48 PM »
In his seforim? They say ZY"A.
When people talk about his? Then it's The Rebbe.
So what are you referring to?
I am speaking about when your average Lubavitcher puts out a Sefer or kuntres (not via Kehos)

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7181
  • Total likes: 271
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #752 on: January 16, 2013, 07:41:33 PM »
Would you agree that its safe to say that Chabad in general as a whole,  today, are a hashkafikaly confused group, in which there is no consistent and coherent ideology?
If yes, who is to blame?

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 53941
  • Total likes: 2511
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #753 on: January 16, 2013, 07:41:49 PM »
I am speaking about when your average Lubavitcher puts out a Sefer or kuntres (not via Kehos)
It's called being politically correct.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 53941
  • Total likes: 2511
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #754 on: January 16, 2013, 07:44:29 PM »
Would you agree that its safe to say that Chabad in general as a whole,  today, are a hashkafikaly confused group, in which there is no consistent and coherent ideology?
If yes, who is to blame?
Not at all.
Chabad has a very clearly defined and rich ideology and worldview, to go out and improve the world to bring moshiach through loving your fellow Jew and caring for them no matter what their spiritual standing may be.  To bring people closer to mitzvos through loving hashem, not being scared of his retribution.

For wanting to do mitzvos to be connected to Gd and not for ulterior motives like Gan Eden or avoiding Gehenom.  I can't tell you how excited I was to learn of this positive and upbeat worldview after having been in litvishe schools where we heard mussar shmoozen and trying to avoid burning in hell.  About learning how the world isn't full of evil we had to avoid, but FULL OF POTENTIAL!

That's what originally provoked the criticisms of kiruv and Mussar and "how can you put tefilin on someone in the street," etc, etc and what continues until today by people with an agenda.

That saying Yechi will hasten moshiach is what the meshichistim believe, but that has nothing to do with Chabad ideology.  But neither is it going to be the downfall of Judaism or even against halacha, so don't let it bother you.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 07:50:44 PM by Dan »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 53941
  • Total likes: 2511
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #755 on: January 16, 2013, 07:44:38 PM »
I think it's safe to say that this post has jumped the shark and descended into some weird witch-hunt.

It's doing nothing to change anyone's mind and the discussion is only causing the opposite of ahavas yisroel and helping out your fellow Jew to improve this world.

Thanks again to Side Incomer for enlightening us with alternate views from the other Chasidic courts and for proving that Chabad's belief system is within the realm of standard chasidic thought.

I apologize to anyone I offended, obviously this is a topic that causes very hot heads.  I hope you'll forgive me and I hope you'll be more open-inded and more willing to be dan l'kav zchus as well.

My only plea is that you stop worrying so much about what OTHERS are doing wrong and start worrying about what YOU can do right.

L'chaim.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 07:56:42 PM by Dan »
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline shiframeir

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 1308
  • Total likes: 45
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Programs: spg gold. nothing else. sigh.
Re: Cancun, Mexico Master Thread
« Reply #756 on: February 02, 2015, 07:56:17 PM »
The politics I'm referring to is the yellow flag vs official.
I know this is mostly off topic and I did some searches but couldnt find anything explaining what the issue is R Dan.
I'm a big chabad fan, went to a chabad shul for years plus some gan izzy as a kid, and stayed in the chabad yeshiva in tsfas several times and ate with the peeps, who all were very believing in the Rebbe being mashiach. And i respect their opinion (though i disagree), but is there any actual split in the real governing structure in chabad (assumedly some believe and some dont, but they can work together), or is it like u say that maybe there are now 2 different hierarchies in chabad, the meshichists and non-mashichists and they dont hold of each other? If so, who has more power/who controls 770?

Offline lybbtthl

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 696
  • Total likes: 7
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Programs: TK Miles&Smiles Elite, Hertz #1 Club Gold President's Circle, National Emerald Club Executive, Starwood Gold
Re: Re: Cancun, Mexico Master Thread
« Reply #757 on: February 03, 2015, 12:02:49 AM »
I know this is mostly off topic and I did some searches but couldnt find anything explaining what the issue is R Dan.
I'm a big chabad fan, went to a chabad shul for years plus some gan izzy as a kid, and stayed in the chabad yeshiva in tsfas several times and ate with the peeps, who all were very believing in the Rebbe being mashiach. And i respect their opinion (though i disagree), but is there any actual split in the real governing structure in chabad (assumedly some believe and some dont, but they can work together), or is it like u say that maybe there are now 2 different hierarchies in chabad, the meshichists and non-mashichists and they dont hold of each other? If so, who has more power/who controls 770?

The so called split in Chabad should not be described as 2 parties, mishechist or not and everyone's one or the other. It's more like a spectrum with extremes on both ends. There are radical fanatics who insist the Rebbe is still physically alive and walking through 770 each day before and after davening and are ready to physically remove someone who stands in their way and there are also radicals to the extreme opposite who will physically fight the other radicals and go to extremes to make sure the Rebbe is clearly referred to as past tense and nothing of him remains alive. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, inclined slightly to one side. Believe it or not, believing the Rebbe is Moshiach is a given for most of the spectrum, all but the extreme. Saying the Rebbe is still alive is another parsha, and within that, to what extent. Most Lubavtichers will not use ZY"A OR SHLIT'A by the Rebbe's name. A common all round used suffix would be Nesi Doreinu, which shows that everyone agrees that the Rebbe is still out Rebbe and our Nosi Hador regardless of what 3 Tammuz 5754 means to them. The hierarchy of the official Chabad offices are more inclined to the so-called 'anti mishechist' side of the spectrum, but they don't have any kind of blanket rule that you can't be a shliach if you say Yechi, there are plenty shluchim recognized by them who say Yechi. The many unofficial shluchim around the world open up on their own because mostly they don't hold of the official Chabad hierarchy, in their opinion, they are a disgrace to the Rebbe. Some cases of unofficial shluchim resulted from fights with other shluchim in the area, or the Head Shliach of the area.
The bottom line is, every Lubavitcher still considers the Rebbe, their Rebbe. they turn to him for brochos, they send in a Duch and Pan periodically, whether this means sending to the Ohel or inserting it at random into pages of the Rebbe's Torah or correspondence, they get their answers one way or the next. After the histalkus of the Frierdiker Rebbe in 5710, before the Rebbe accepted the leadership officially, chassidim turned to the Rebbe and asked him how do we now receive the Rebbe's advice? The Rebbe answered, you write as always, the Shver (the way the Rebbe referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe) will find a way to answer! some other chassidim fight over who will be the next rebbe while their current rebbe is still alive, the opposite is true for all in Lubavitch, whatever way you look at it, the Rebbe is still the Rebbe.
Almost every Lubavitcher believes the Rebbe will be revealed as Melech Hamoshiach eventually, some make it a point of publicizing it, some shy away, after all, it's from Gemorah Sanhedrin that every talmid believes his Rebbe is Moshiach. Sanhedrin clearly says Moshiach can be from the dead as well, as Tzadikim will have techiyas hameisim before the hisgalus. There is quite a faction in Lubavitch that openly refer to the Rebbe as Melech Hamoshiach, but never say Shlit"a.
As far as 770 is concerned, the gaboyim in control are community elected (the crown heights community) their position on the spectrum is leaning towards the mishechist side, but there are crowds of the extreme there who practically control the place. They act as if nothing changed, the Rebbe's place is set up everyday three times for each davening, they form a pathway and sing Yechi before and after each davening, they say Yechi after krias hatorah and after each davening, but this is all they do on an average weekday, Shabbos it get's a little more extreme, they set up the table where the Rebbe farbrenged every Shabbos and they turn benches and tables toward it and stand there for at least 3 hours as if the Rebbe is actually farbrenging, anyone who tries to stop them moving benches or talks too close to them.....there are more extreme occasional situations but for the most part it's not too extreme. Very few Lubavitchers steer clear of the main shule in 770, only the extreme "anti" won't ever go to 770.
The bottom line is that not everyone who believes the Rebbe is still alive is that extreme or crazy, there is basis for it, they don't necessarily believe it in the most physical sense, but there are various things they can mean, (a certain mashpia in a yeshiva who is known more as an "anti" confided to me privately that even today, when he sits down to write a Pan, he begins with "Pan L'Cha"K ADMu"R  Shlit"a, it's only in such a serious moment when to him the Rebbe is very much alive, that he actually writes it like that) (BTW the Rebbe many times used the term Shlit'a after the passing of the Frierdiker Rebbe among other references, he also never said Ztz"l or any other kind of suffix on the Frierdiker Rebbe, although he did write it) Many Lubavitchers who still say or write Shlit"a do it based on the fact their feeling to the Rebbe that he's very much alive through his children, i.e. chassidim and shluchim, mah zaroi bachayim af hu bachayim. The Rebbe once explained that the proclamation of Yechi Hamelech by the people adds life where it's apparently lacking, the Rebbe said this regarding the Frierdiker Rebbe on the yohrtzeit of the Rebbe Rashab, the day the Frierdiker Rebbe effectively took over.

There's much to be discussed on this topic, ein kan hamakom lehaarich....

Offline yakov116

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2014
  • Posts: 1415
  • Total likes: 33
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #758 on: February 03, 2015, 08:30:48 AM »
The so called split in Chabad should not be described as 2 parties, mishechist or not and everyone's one or the other. It's more like a spectrum with extremes on both ends. There are radical fanatics who insist the Rebbe is still physically alive and walking through 770 each day before and after davening and are ready to physically remove someone who stands in their way and there are also radicals to the extreme opposite who will physically fight the other radicals and go to extremes to make sure the Rebbe is clearly referred to as past tense and nothing of him remains alive. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, inclined slightly to one side. Believe it or not, believing the Rebbe is Moshiach is a given for most of the spectrum, all but the extreme. Saying the Rebbe is still alive is another parsha, and within that, to what extent. Most Lubavtichers will not use ZY"A OR SHLIT'A by the Rebbe's name. A common all round used suffix would be Nesi Doreinu, which shows that everyone agrees that the Rebbe is still out Rebbe and our Nosi Hador regardless of what 3 Tammuz 5754 means to them. The hierarchy of the official Chabad offices are more inclined to the so-called 'anti mishechist' side of the spectrum, but they don't have any kind of blanket rule that you can't be a shliach if you say Yechi, there are plenty shluchim recognized by them who say Yechi. The many unofficial shluchim around the world open up on their own because mostly they don't hold of the official Chabad hierarchy, in their opinion, they are a disgrace to the Rebbe. Some cases of unofficial shluchim resulted from fights with other shluchim in the area, or the Head Shliach of the area.
The bottom line is, every Lubavitcher still considers the Rebbe, their Rebbe. they turn to him for brochos, they send in a Duch and Pan periodically, whether this means sending to the Ohel or inserting it at random into pages of the Rebbe's Torah or correspondence, they get their answers one way or the next. After the histalkus of the Frierdiker Rebbe in 5710, before the Rebbe accepted the leadership officially, chassidim turned to the Rebbe and asked him how do we now receive the Rebbe's advice? The Rebbe answered, you write as always, the Shver (the way the Rebbe referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe) will find a way to answer! some other chassidim fight over who will be the next rebbe while their current rebbe is still alive, the opposite is true for all in Lubavitch, whatever way you look at it, the Rebbe is still the Rebbe.
Almost every Lubavitcher believes the Rebbe will be revealed as Melech Hamoshiach eventually, some make it a point of publicizing it, some shy away, after all, it's from Gemorah Sanhedrin that every talmid believes his Rebbe is Moshiach. Sanhedrin clearly says Moshiach can be from the dead as well, as Tzadikim will have techiyas hameisim before the hisgalus. There is quite a faction in Lubavitch that openly refer to the Rebbe as Melech Hamoshiach, but never say Shlit"a.
As far as 770 is concerned, the gaboyim in control are community elected (the crown heights community) their position on the spectrum is leaning towards the mishechist side, but there are crowds of the extreme there who practically control the place. They act as if nothing changed, the Rebbe's place is set up everyday three times for each davening, they form a pathway and sing Yechi before and after each davening, they say Yechi after krias hatorah and after each davening, but this is all they do on an average weekday, Shabbos it get's a little more extreme, they set up the table where the Rebbe farbrenged every Shabbos and they turn benches and tables toward it and stand there for at least 3 hours as if the Rebbe is actually farbrenging, anyone who tries to stop them moving benches or talks too close to them.....there are more extreme occasional situations but for the most part it's not too extreme. Very few Lubavitchers steer clear of the main shule in 770, only the extreme "anti" won't ever go to 770.
The bottom line is that not everyone who believes the Rebbe is still alive is that extreme or crazy, there is basis for it, they don't necessarily believe it in the most physical sense, but there are various things they can mean, (a certain mashpia in a yeshiva who is known more as an "anti" confided to me privately that even today, when he sits down to write a Pan, he begins with "Pan L'Cha"K ADMu"R  Shlit"a, it's only in such a serious moment when to him the Rebbe is very much alive, that he actually writes it like that) (BTW the Rebbe many times used the term Shlit'a after the passing of the Frierdiker Rebbe among other references, he also never said Ztz"l or any other kind of suffix on the Frierdiker Rebbe, although he did write it) Many Lubavitchers who still say or write Shlit"a do it based on the fact their feeling to the Rebbe that he's very much alive through his children, i.e. chassidim and shluchim, mah zaroi bachayim af hu bachayim. The Rebbe once explained that the proclamation of Yechi Hamelech by the people adds life where it's apparently lacking, the Rebbe said this regarding the Frierdiker Rebbe on the yohrtzeit of the Rebbe Rashab, the day the Frierdiker Rebbe effectively took over.

There's much to be discussed on this topic, ein kan hamakom lehaarich....
Thank you for the explanation I never understood it until now

Money talks...mine says goodbye!

Online moko

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 2460
  • Total likes: 79
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Re: Cancun, Mexico Master Thread
« Reply #759 on: February 03, 2015, 08:48:18 AM »
The so called split in Chabad should not be described as 2 parties, mishechist or not and everyone's one or the other. It's more like a spectrum with extremes on both ends. There are radical fanatics who insist the Rebbe is still physically alive and walking through 770 each day before and after davening and are ready to physically remove someone who stands in their way and there are also radicals to the extreme opposite who will physically fight the other radicals and go to extremes to make sure the Rebbe is clearly referred to as past tense and nothing of him remains alive. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, inclined slightly to one side. Believe it or not, believing the Rebbe is Moshiach is a given for most of the spectrum, all but the extreme. Saying the Rebbe is still alive is another parsha, and within that, to what extent. Most Lubavtichers will not use ZY"A OR SHLIT'A by the Rebbe's name. A common all round used suffix would be Nesi Doreinu, which shows that everyone agrees that the Rebbe is still out Rebbe and our Nosi Hador regardless of what 3 Tammuz 5754 means to them. The hierarchy of the official Chabad offices are more inclined to the so-called 'anti mishechist' side of the spectrum, but they don't have any kind of blanket rule that you can't be a shliach if you say Yechi, there are plenty shluchim recognized by them who say Yechi. The many unofficial shluchim around the world open up on their own because mostly they don't hold of the official Chabad hierarchy, in their opinion, they are a disgrace to the Rebbe. Some cases of unofficial shluchim resulted from fights with other shluchim in the area, or the Head Shliach of the area.
The bottom line is, every Lubavitcher still considers the Rebbe, their Rebbe. they turn to him for brochos, they send in a Duch and Pan periodically, whether this means sending to the Ohel or inserting it at random into pages of the Rebbe's Torah or correspondence, they get their answers one way or the next. After the histalkus of the Frierdiker Rebbe in 5710, before the Rebbe accepted the leadership officially, chassidim turned to the Rebbe and asked him how do we now receive the Rebbe's advice? The Rebbe answered, you write as always, the Shver (the way the Rebbe referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe) will find a way to answer! some other chassidim fight over who will be the next rebbe while their current rebbe is still alive, the opposite is true for all in Lubavitch, whatever way you look at it, the Rebbe is still the Rebbe.
Almost every Lubavitcher believes the Rebbe will be revealed as Melech Hamoshiach eventually, some make it a point of publicizing it, some shy away, after all, it's from Gemorah Sanhedrin that every talmid believes his Rebbe is Moshiach. Sanhedrin clearly says Moshiach can be from the dead as well, as Tzadikim will have techiyas hameisim before the hisgalus. There is quite a faction in Lubavitch that openly refer to the Rebbe as Melech Hamoshiach, but never say Shlit"a.
As far as 770 is concerned, the gaboyim in control are community elected (the crown heights community) their position on the spectrum is leaning towards the mishechist side, but there are crowds of the extreme there who practically control the place. They act as if nothing changed, the Rebbe's place is set up everyday three times for each davening, they form a pathway and sing Yechi before and after each davening, they say Yechi after krias hatorah and after each davening, but this is all they do on an average weekday, Shabbos it get's a little more extreme, they set up the table where the Rebbe farbrenged every Shabbos and they turn benches and tables toward it and stand there for at least 3 hours as if the Rebbe is actually farbrenging, anyone who tries to stop them moving benches or talks too close to them.....there are more extreme occasional situations but for the most part it's not too extreme. Very few Lubavitchers steer clear of the main shule in 770, only the extreme "anti" won't ever go to 770.
The bottom line is that not everyone who believes the Rebbe is still alive is that extreme or crazy, there is basis for it, they don't necessarily believe it in the most physical sense, but there are various things they can mean, (a certain mashpia in a yeshiva who is known more as an "anti" confided to me privately that even today, when he sits down to write a Pan, he begins with "Pan L'Cha"K ADMu"R  Shlit"a, it's only in such a serious moment when to him the Rebbe is very much alive, that he actually writes it like that) (BTW the Rebbe many times used the term Shlit'a after the passing of the Frierdiker Rebbe among other references, he also never said Ztz"l or any other kind of suffix on the Frierdiker Rebbe, although he did write it) Many Lubavitchers who still say or write Shlit"a do it based on the fact their feeling to the Rebbe that he's very much alive through his children, i.e. chassidim and shluchim, mah zaroi bachayim af hu bachayim. The Rebbe once explained that the proclamation of Yechi Hamelech by the people adds life where it's apparently lacking, the Rebbe said this regarding the Frierdiker Rebbe on the yohrtzeit of the Rebbe Rashab, the day the Frierdiker Rebbe effectively took over.

There's much to be discussed on this topic, .ein kan hamakom lehaarich.. .
:D

Offline DP7

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Sep 2012
  • Posts: 1836
  • Total likes: 4
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
  • Location: New York
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #760 on: February 03, 2015, 09:32:05 AM »

And i respect their opinion

You shouldn't.

Offline Emkay

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 14357
  • Total likes: 344
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 35
    • View Profile
  • Location: Where I ought to be
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #761 on: February 03, 2015, 09:38:48 AM »
You shouldn't.
This thread is for civil discussions only

Offline elit

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 1288
  • Total likes: 111
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #762 on: February 03, 2015, 09:39:33 AM »
I thought this thread was locked? How did this start again?

Offline DP7

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Sep 2012
  • Posts: 1836
  • Total likes: 4
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
  • Location: New York
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #763 on: February 03, 2015, 09:44:05 AM »

This thread is for civil discussions only

It's civil to try to protect people from false ideologies. I won't post in this thread anymore.

Offline Emkay

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 14357
  • Total likes: 344
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 35
    • View Profile
  • Location: Where I ought to be
Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
« Reply #764 on: February 03, 2015, 09:45:53 AM »


I won't post in this thread anymore.
Marvelous