Messianism among Lubavitch

[Dan]

No true Scotsman? How so?

You didn't answer about seeing a difference.

I didn't watch the video at length, but are these guys discussing what's wrong with Chasidus by twisting what the tzemach tzedek wrote or are they actually believing that?

If they actually believe that then it's shocking that they don't have untouched beards, which is a basic requirement to be a Chabad chosid.

[jj1000]

I didn't watch the video at length, but are these guys discussing what's wrong with Chasidus by twisting what the tzemach tzedek wrote or are they actually believing that?

If they actually believe that then it's a but shocking they don't have untouched beards, which is a basic requirement to be a Chabad chosid.

And likely a diorisah according to the tzemach tzedek iirc

[Dan]

And likely a diorisah according to the tzemach tzedek iirc

And if you believe the TT was some sort of flesh and blood Gd (C"V) how much more so should they listen to his edicts 

[EJB]

You don't see the vast difference between NK and these guys on the video the way it is being described here?

Also, NK isn't satmer.

[EJB]

And if you believe the TT was some sort of flesh and blood Gd (C"V) how much more so should they listen to his edicts 

TT is good, but I think he's overpaid at $16m a year 

[Dan]

Also, NK isn't satmer.

They're more Satmar than those shaved dudes are Lubavitchers.

[zh cohen]

Also, NK isn't satmer.

But they are as much (or more) a logical outcome of the Satmar shita as the meshichistim are of Lubavitch

[aygart]

You guys are not being honest with yourselves

[aygart]

You guys are not being honest with yourselves

Aka cognitive dissonance

[Boruch999]

I didn't watch the video at length, but are these guys discussing what's wrong with Chasidus by twisting what the tzemach tzedek wrote or are they actually believing that?

If they actually believe that then it's shocking that they don't have untouched beards, which is a basic requirement to be a Chabad chosid.

I watched the whole video.  They are academics (most apear do not appear religous) attempting to explain how meshichism came about.  The tone was not anti Chasidus. 

[EJB]

But they are as much (or more) a logical outcome of the Satmar shita as the meshichistim are of Lubavitch

I wouldn't call either a logical outcome. Both are fringe groups. Satmer has issued cherems against NK ppl, such as those that visited iran. In terms of who's doing a bigger aveirah, I think we can agree both are bad and I don't think it's our place to rank. 

[EJB]

But they are as much (or more) a logical outcome of the Satmar shita as the meshichistim are of Lubavitch

I agree that both are fringe groups.

[Dan]

I watched the whole video.  They are academics (most apear do not appear religous) attempting to explain how meshichism came about.  The tone was not anti Chasidus. 

I figured that CBC/aygart's interpretation of them as Lubavitchers made zero sense. Even with fancy cognitive dissonance words, doesn't make it true that such things exist.

Regardless, meshichists have nothing to do with those beliefs.

A chosid beleives that his Rebbe is Moshiach of his generation. This isn't exclusive to Chabad.
Normally a new rebbe comes after one dies, but there is nobody in Lubavitch who could possibly fill our Rebbes shoes, hence the current situation.

As said and confirmed earlier, in most chassidus they believe their rebbe to be moshiach.
Nothing unique about Chabad here except the desire by some of spreading that.

That's news to me.

Nobody would consider "belz" as a meshichist chasidis. I heard once from the Belze Rebbe, by a yahrteit tish of the prebious rebber R' Aron TZ"L:
"we all believe that the uncle (R' Aron) was meshiach, and if he wasn't, he had the ability to be".
I learned from that, that actually every chasid should think on his Rebbe, that he is Meshiach, or at least have the ability of being Mashiach.

You are again missing the point. Every chosid has the right to believe his rebbe is tzadik hador.

But to think he's manhig hador? yes

That's how all talmidei baal shem choose their rebbe, based on what they thought he has the strength and koiach to be manhig hador, and that's how it went m'dor dor...

Manhig hador = mashiach

I am just wondering how much of the debaters here have finished a single chasidish sefer that they find so funny that someone should believe that the tzadik hador is mashiach...

It's pretty simple, mashiach is going to be the manhig hador. Everybody has their own right to guess who the manhig hador is. And if Chabad decided that it's rebbe, what the hell do you care?

Some quotes from other non-chabad related sforim, that the manhig hador is mashiach.
There is 100's out there, I just have no time to collect them right now.

:אהל שלמה ח"ב עמוד י"ח
בני הרב הצדיק הקדוש רבי אברהם זצ"ל מטשעכעוו הסמוך ללובלין שאלו את היהודי הקדוש זצ"ל בעודנו תלמיד אצל האדמו"ר הרבי מלובלין זצ"ל מה זה הדבר הלא אבינו יושב ולומד כל היום כולו כי הוא היה איש קדוש מאוד גאון מופלג וסיגף עצמו בתעניתים ובעל מופת וממש לא תמוש התורה מפיו ורודף צדקה וחסד ומדוע לא ינהרו אליו אלפים ורבבות כאשר ירוצו אל הרבי מלובלין זי"ע והשיב היהודי הקדוש זי"ע "כי כל צדיק וצדיק צריך להיות לו ניצוץ ממשיח ואם לאו אינו יכול להיות מנהיג הדור

:תפארת שלמה - חנוכה ד"ה זכר עשה
מטעם זה גלי נמצרים נכבד ישועה על פני תהום הלל כי עיקר חיות... ואחר כך יצמיח להם ישועה על ידי צדיק הדור.

שבט מיהודה להרה"ג רבי יהודא גרינוולד - אבד"ק סאטמאר:
תאר במלים מזעזעים את עבודתו בקח ו הרבה ומסירת נפשו למען הכלל ישראל וכותב על ידו נקבעו יושבי ביהמד"ר יומם ולילה לא יחשו נפלה עט"ר צבי תפארתינו מו"ר משיח ה' הק' דבעלז ד'ל כ"ז שהיה הצדיק הדור...,

:לקוטי מוהר"ן ב ו ט ד קי"ח אבל בודאי
"כי אמנם שגם זה אמת כי כל צדיק הדור יש בו בחינת משה משיח"

So Pshischa - Breslov - radomsk - belz and others have the right to believe that the manhig hador is mashiach, but chabad doesn't?

You can say you don't believe is chasiddus at all, and including that what their sforim say, buy why have you put your hands on chabad just because of the few extreme ones?
1. people like you have said this when the Baal shem tov appeared, and we all know the hemshech... And yes, chabad with this movement hasn't gone away from chassidus at all, as I mentioned already.
2. All those in history tried to implant this on others. I don't think chabad has that intention.

[aygart]

. Both are fringe groups. Satmer has issued cherems against NK ppl, such as those that visited iran.

this is a tremendous difference. The other cancer has been allowed to grow.

[aygart]

I figured that CBC/aygart's interpretation of them as Lubavitchers made zero sense. Even with fancy cognitive dissonance words, doesn't make it true that such things exist.

Regardless, meshichists have nothing to do with those beliefs.

A chosid beleives that his Rebbe is Moshiach of his generation. This isn't exclusive to Chabad.
Normally a new rebbe comes after one dies, but there is nobody in Lubavitch who could possibly fill our Rebbes shoes, hence the current situation.

What about about the quotes they read?

[Dan]

this is a tremendous difference. The other cancer has been allowed to grow.

What is the cancer exactly? Can you define it and the problem with it?

[Dan]

What about about the quotes they read?

So go to your local shliach and ask to learn Derech Mitzvosacha and Tanya with him if you actually want to understand chassidus.
Should I start taking out of context quotes from every sefer in order to misinterpret them?

Do you think the A"R and T"T would be universally respected Tzadikim if they were apikorsim?!? Do you know how many sects of chasidus were founded by the T"T's children?

Unreal. Next thing we know you'll be posting about Chabad using litvish blood in their matzah!

[churnbabychurn]

I figured that CBC/aygart's interpretation of them as Lubavitchers made zero sense. Even with fancy cognitive dissonance words, doesn't make it true that such things exist.

Regardless, meshichists have nothing to do with those beliefs.

A chosid beleives that his Rebbe is Moshiach of his generation. This isn't exclusive to Chabad.
Normally a new rebbe comes after one dies, but there is nobody in Lubavitch who could possibly fill our Rebbes shoes, hence the current situation.

Not at all. I know what chabadskers look like!

I understood that these are academics who studied the Rebbe in depth and reached the same conclusion that I did. - namely that there was plenty of teaching that caused the crazyness. It didn't start from nowhere....

I'm not going to get dragged into an argument about it though..

[Dan]

Not at all. I know what chabadskers look like!

I understood that these are academics who studied the Rebbe in depth and reached the same conclusion that I did. - namely that there was plenty of teaching that caused the crazyness. It didn't start from nowhere....

I'm not going to get dragged into an argument about it though..

OK, the T"T's chasidus caused craziness hundreds of years later. Cool story.
Have you learned the chasidus in question or do you always listen and accept the non-religious academics interpretation of Torah?

[churnbabychurn]

So go to your local shliach and ask to learn Derech Mitzvosacha and Tanya with him if you actually want to understand chassidus.
Should I start taking out of context quotes from every sefer in order to misinterpret them?

Do you think the A"R and T"T would be universally respected Tzadikim if they were apikorsim?!? Do you know how many sects of chasidus were founded by the T"T's children?

Unreal. Next thing we know you'll be posting about Chabad using litvish blood in their matzah!

As we discussed up thread, and as is discussed in the video. It's not just esoteric quotes that caused this... - it's the actions, it's the whole "mori chomi shlita" hanhoga. Etc etc. Much much more.