Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread

[Lurker]

I'm pretty confident Dan isn't entertaining posting something without that

I understood differently. Clear evidence changes things for me a bit, but I still think there's value is presenting it as a detailed but general PSA rather than as a specific expose. People tend to lose the forest for the trees.

[biobook]

Timeline and full picture just got much clearer, but I guess I'll see if the hotel responds tomorrow before deciding what to do with it. But I definitely have most of the puzzle and evidence put together now.

Solving a puzzle is satisfying, and I admit that I'm curious about it.  But I don't think these details are something that would interest those considering a future program.  They'd just need to know "scammer" "unreliable" ... and move on. 

The question I would ask is if the information you've discovered would be helpful for the victims, and if so, it might make more sense to share it with them directly, rather than with the whole world. 

[AsherO]

Part would be to find the individual behind the entity

But how to do that for any future program that might or might not be his? Simply asking could lead to name dropping a name you can’t find on Google, no way to know whether it’s him or not.

[AMH]

Has any1 reached out to the Claridge(r) for comment?

[ExGingi]

Above All: a warning about כשרות at some programs.

FTFY.

Can't recall where exactly I saw it (I believe somewhere on DDF, but possibly elsewhere) that a huge percentage of programs are probably not kosher, and another segment might be kosher but not KFP.

I think that if DDMS wants to maintain high class it should avoid advertising ALL Pesach Programs.

Unfortunately, as @Something Fishy pointed out, very few people that sign up inquire about Kashrus. Is it because people don't care, or because they're naïve? Does it really matter?

Maybe the DDMS post should be an interview with @moko about the reality and complexity of Kashrus at such programs, and what is really required in order to try to make sure they are up to a certain Kashrus standard (ratio of mashgichim to size of program, qualifications, required experience of organizers, certifiers and mashgichim, etc). Including the fact that running a proper program profitably requires a significant amount of capital and involves significant costs. If the price is too good to be true, then it probably is too good to be true.

[ExGingi]

But how to do that for any future program that might or might not be his? Simply asking could lead to name dropping a name you can’t find on Google, no way to know whether it’s him or not.

Very simple. When it comes to Pesach Programs just act like there is no חזקת כשרות, and besides for financial loss you are potentially dealing with a possibility of being served non-kosher on Pesach! If you can't ascertain to a level that you are comfortable with that it will not occur, despite experts saying that it does occur in (a majority of?) Pesach Programs, then don't expect any other part (financial or otherwise) to be any better.

[aygart]

But how to do that for any future program that might or might not be his? Simply asking could lead to name dropping a name you can’t find on Google, no way to know whether it’s him or not.

To go to a program run by someone without a history is idiotic.

[AsherO]

Very simple. When it comes to Pesach Programs just act like there is no חזקת כשרות, and besides for financial loss you are potentially dealing with a possibility of being served non-kosher on Pesach! If you can't ascertain to a level that you are comfortable with that it will not occur, despite experts saying that it does occur in (a majority of?) Pesach Programs, then don't expect any other part (financial or otherwise) to be any better.

To go to a program run by someone without a history is idiotic.

In response to both of you:

Might be very true, but that wasn’t the question.

[Mordyk]

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=132979.0

Vote now!

I really am conflicted.  I know HG pretty well  and can understand alot that happened.   But I would need to ask a LOR before I decide what is LH or what is ok so others don't fall for it.

[JMHO]

Hence my question, is there toeles that justifies it?

There have definitely been strong arguments (both ways!) made here, and at this point I'd recommend that you ask your Rav and then proceed (or not)!

[YitzyS]

Waiting for @mevinyavin to weigh in. Rabbi Berkowitz is known to be one of the biggest experts in practical Loshon Harah questions, and I wonder what his view is on this type of conundrum.

[Yehuda57]

Toeles
Toy-eh-less
adjective

1) Meets an individual's personal agenda
"My post that @Something Fishy is a liar and a cheat was not gossip, it was l'toeles; so that no one goes on his trips. It had nothing to do with my ongoing feud with his mother in law."

[Moshe123]

An אנזעצער isn't necessarily a scammer and a crook, but he's an אנזעצער and that would be emphasized.

[aygart]

In response to both of you:

Might be very true, but that wasn’t the question.

He can make up a name with no history but to go to such a program is idiotic. Once he uses his own personal name even behind a new LLC it depends on what is attached to his name. There is much more attached to his name now than there was before.

To go to a program run by someone without a history is idiotic.

[AsherO]

He can make up a name with no history but to go to such a program is idiotic. Once he uses his own personal name even behind a new LLC it depends on what is attached to his name. There is much more attached to his name now than there was before.

Look at it the other way, someone shopping around Pesach programs looks into 3 different programs organized by frum travel companies he’s never heard of. How could they know conclusively who runs these companies?

[aygart]

Look at it the other way, someone shopping around Pesach programs looks into 3 different programs organized by frum travel companies he’s never heard of. How could they know conclusively who runs these companies?

If the company has no history then it already needs more research. Ask them?

[AsherO]

Ask them?

And they give you some ambiguous name that you can’t find on Google. How would you know if a serial charlatan is somehow involved?

HG might not be ready to move on from this line of business, even if everyone at the sidelines thinks that would be the obvious thing to do.

[mevinyavin]

Waiting for @mevinyavin to weigh in. Rabbi Berkowitz is known to be one of the biggest experts in practical Loshon Harah questions, and I wonder what his view is on this type of conundrum.

Don't know enough about the subject matter to judge how essential it is. Lo saamod says you have to do something, so at a minimum a general warning with tools for the tzibbur is required. The only question is if there is a future toeles for something more specific, and if you can do so while obeying the rules of toeles. Can you say only what is fact and use no opinionated words? Can you not do him more damage than he deserves (and what damage does he deserve? Only Hashem knows for sure - Botei Din can do very little today). Is there a way to narrowly address only those to whom it is a toeles (doubtful)? If a dispensation for toeles is warranted because of lo saamod, it would take really wide shoulders to say so before I would be confident enough.
In short, the general warning is the only advice I can get behind with confidence.

Agav, it is worth mentioning that this is olam hazeh. "It is the mark of olam hazeh that good people get stepped on by bad people. You can only expect justice in the olam hoemes, not in the olam hasheker." We need to take responsibility for klal yisrael but only within the boundaries of halacha, and we need not worry about them further because the rest is Hashem's job. As to what is ours and what is His, you need a Rav. As I said, with wide shoulders on this one.

[aygart]

And they give you some ambiguous name that you can’t find on Google. How would you know if a serial charlatan is somehow involved?

If there is no name or history available then you know they are either hiding something or do not have the needed experience. There are more ways of finding history than google.

[AsherO]

If there is no name or history available then you know they are either hiding something or do not have the needed experience. There are more ways of finding history than google.

Have no plans of attending a Pesach program and can do my due-diligence, I’m just wondering what’s expected from someone on the street. Sadly, if someone wants to keep playing these games not much will stand in their way.